March 3, 2026

March or Die - with Special Guest Jeremy Stalnecker

March or Die - with Special Guest Jeremy Stalnecker

Send a text In this compelling interview, Jeremy Stalnecker, a former Marine and Iraq combat veteran, shares profound insights on leadership, resilience, faith, and the true meaning of courage. Discover how military principles translate into everyday life and how to keep moving forward despite life's challenges. Topics: Leadership, Resilience, Faith, Military, Veterans, Courage, Personal Development, Spiritual Warfare, March or Die, Mental Toughness CHAPTERS: Courage tha...

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Season 7

Send a text

In this compelling interview, Jeremy Stalnecker, a former Marine and Iraq combat veteran, shares profound insights on leadership, resilience, faith, and the true meaning of courage. Discover how military principles translate into everyday life and how to keep moving forward despite life's challenges.

Topics: Leadership, Resilience, Faith, Military, Veterans, Courage, Personal Development, Spiritual Warfare, March or Die, Mental Toughness

CHAPTERS:

Courage that costs

Authority vs leadership

Resilience isn’t toughness

Faith without band-aids

Trauma vs excuse

“I’m fine” and the tells

March or Die origin story

Can grit become avoidance?

Marching without motivation

Advice to 22-year-old Jeremy

How to get help (Mighty Oaks)


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Find more information about our guest here:

https://www.mightyoaksprograms.org/

https://www.marchordie.com/





Support the show

Thanks for listening! SUBSCRIBE, Review, Rate, and Share. Contact us: cowboysnoteggheads@gmail.com Let us know if you want a hat ($20), tee shirt ($30), coffee cup ($25), or window decal for your truck. ($30)

WEBVTT

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Welcome to Cowboys, not Eggheads.

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Home of the brave, not home of the fearful.

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Remember to subscribe, rate, review, and share.

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And now, Cowboys Not Eggheads with Sam Fisher.

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Welcome back to Cowboys Not Eggheads.

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Today I'm sitting down with a man who's lived leadership under fire, literally.

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Jeremy Stallnecker is a former U.S.

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Marine Corps infantry officer and Iraq combat veteran and awarded the Navy accommodation medal with V for victor.

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But what interests me most isn't the medal, it's what came after.

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Jeremy is the CEO and co-founder of the Mighty Oaks Foundation, where he works with veterans wrestling with trauma, identity, and the hard transition back to civilian life, approaching it from a biblical perspective in a place of real world experience.

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He's also the voice behind the march or die philosophy, a mindset rooted in discipline, faith, and forward movement when quitting feels easier.

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Today we're not here to talk about accolades, we're here to talk about courage, resilience, leadership, and what it really means to keep marching.

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Jeremy, welcome to Cowboys, not Eggheads.

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Thanks, man.

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It's awesome to be with you.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Uh, you know, I uh Jeremy, to to let you know, I used to when I ran a business, if somebody applied and they were a veteran, if they were a Marine, because you're always a Marine, they were right.

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Uh I learned this from my dad.

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He said just automatically hire them.

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So that's that's the regard that I have for Marine Corps.

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Now I'm sure there are many Marines you know that you may not hire yourself, but uh yeah, I was just gonna say I I hope they did good for you because uh I've known a couple guys.

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They did, they did.

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Um, but um thank you for your service to our country, um, and thank you for what you do for veterans.

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It's it's it's really, really important and uh look forward to having a great conversation today.

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Uh Jeremy, when's the last time your your courage cost you something that uh uh that cost you something personally?

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Yeah, and that's a big question.

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Um, you know, from where I sit, my job is to run an organization that serves veterans.

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We have programs all over the country.

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So there are things happening all of the time.

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And in leadership, kind of in the seat that I sit in, there are a lot of opportunities for me to make the decision.

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I'm either going to do the best hard thing.

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I'm going to deal with a situation or a person, uh, whatever's going on because I need to, or do the less best easy thing, which is just let it ride and just let it go.

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And I think the reason that I have friction in those moments is because there's always a cost to doing the right hard thing.

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Um, it may be a cost in friendship.

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Sometimes it is, you know, particularly in a nonprofit like ours.

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A lot of the people that we work with have been with us for a long time.

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They've given their heart and soul to what we do, and you have to have a hard conversation.

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And sometimes you have to let people go.

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And um man, it's super difficult.

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And you go through that process of thinking, well, I'll just let it go.

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But that would be the easy thing.

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The harder thing, the right thing, is knowing that I'm gonna do this, but there is going to be a cost, and it's gonna be a relationship cost.

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Um, unfortunately, that happens a lot in you know, kind of corporate or business or whatever, nonprofit leadership.

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Yeah, it does.

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And and and even personally, sometimes that's the hard, I mean, it's it's it's hard to let people go is one of the hardest things on earth.

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Um yeah, I I always say it'd be a lot easier if I didn't like the people I work with, right?

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Because then it's like, yeah, I don't want you here anyhow.

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But that's that's that's the cost.

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The cost is I'm losing a personal relationship.

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That's those are the hardest ones for me to let go.

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I mean, I've experienced that here recently, last couple years.

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A close friend, a mentor of mine moved, and um, you know, it I I absolutely like this person, and and and it's it's hard.

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It's it it's it's it's challenging for sure.

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Um you know, you've led Marines and now you're you're you're leading hurt veterans, you know, hurting veterans.

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What's the difference between um authority in the Marine Corps and real leadership in what you do today?

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Yeah.

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Yeah, that's a great question.

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And I think this is where a lot of veterans get lost in the transition process.

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We look at rank, rate, uh, job, billet, the, the, the, the place that we are serving.

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And there is authority that comes with that, but it's mandated authority.

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It's authority because you have the rank, you have the rate, you have the position, and you transition away from that.

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You leave the military, you leave the first responder community, whatever that is, and you leave that so-called authority behind.

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And leadership is understanding that if people have to follow me, uh, that is not the same thing as being a leader.

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There's one thing to do leadership.

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It's one thing to do leadership.

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I can fulfill a role that I have, it's another thing to be a leader.

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And as people transition from one role to the other, they have to understand that leadership is about serving the people that you have authority over, people that have been brought into your life.

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And so authority and leadership should not be conflated.

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It shouldn't be confused that one is the other.

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It's not.

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The people that do well transitioning through the various stages of life are people that get that.

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But leadership is saying, what do I have available to me for the benefit of those that I lead?

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What resources, what opportunities, what influence do I have that I can leverage on the behalf of the people that I lead, that I serve?

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How can I take them from where they are to where they need to be?

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How can I make them better?

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And that is really to me the essence of leadership.

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Authority is something very, very different that can be bestowed upon a person, that can be earned because you started the thing and now people have to follow you.

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Authority is very different than leadership.

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And getting that right will pave the way to good transitions from one phase of life to another.

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You bet.

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100% agree.

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Um what you know, you you work around a lot of uh a lot of men, um, and women, obviously, but but what what what do you think most men get wrong about resilience?

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Yeah.

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I mean, is resilience toughness or is it something else?

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It is something else.

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There's a there's a quote that I love.

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Um a book was written by uh a guy, his moniker, his title was Lord Moran.

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Lord Moran was Winston Churchill's personal physician, uh, beginning in World War II, or kind of just prior to World War II, but he was with Winston Churchill all the way into uh the early 60s when Churchill passed away.

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So he's with him for a long time.

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Um and in the middle of the war, for whatever reason, he decided to write a book.

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And he wrote a book called The Anatomy of Courage.

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It's a great book.

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I encourage everyone to go and read it.

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Um, The Anatomy of Courage.

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And it was his look as a physician, as a surgeon, it was his look at what today we would call post-traumatic stress.

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So that didn't have that name at the time, but that's what he was examining and trying to figure out.

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And he went back to when he was a physician in World War I.

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He was actually stationed with soldiers in the trenches of World War I.

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And in the process of that, he observed that there are daily bombings, there are these threats to life.

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All of these things happen.

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And some people will encounter what at the time they called shell shock.

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They just can't take it anymore.

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Uh, there are different degrees of shell shock.

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It's what, again, today we'd call post-traumatic stress.

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So there are those who responded that way, uh, having an emotional, nervous breakdown.

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And again, we've looked at that a lot since then, but that's how he he looked at it.

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They break down.

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And then there are those who, in the same exact situation, same exact circumstance, they continue to act courageously.

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They go out into the firefight when there's a firefight to be had, they uh function well, they get through that that time, however long it is, they get to that time in a good way.

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So, what's the difference?

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And this is where the title came from the anatomy of courage.

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What is the anatomy of courage?

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What makes someone courageous?

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He breaks that down throughout the book, but in the beginning of the book, he makes this statement.

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I observed, so he's watching people, some are doing well, some not so well.

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I observed that a man of character and peace is a man of courage in war.

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A man of character and peace is a man of courage in war.

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And he went on to explain, and this is a big part of the book, he went on to explain that the person who is mentally prepared, who is in the sense of character, they put the right things in, they know who they are, they have the support systems around them, all those things.

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They are prepared.

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We might say it this way they've predecided who they are before the bombs drop, before the difficulty comes into their life.

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Those are the people that move through it in a great way.

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And I think that illustrates so well what resilience is and what it requires.

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Resilience is having the ability to bounce back.

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And this is very simple, right?

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A clinician would give us a larger breakdown, but basically, what is resilience?

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To be resilient means you have the ability to bounce back.

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You know where you're going.

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Difficulty comes into your life, you may even get knocked down.

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It can be hard and overwhelming, but when it does, you're able to get back up, recenter, refocus on whatever your true north is and keep moving forward.

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Well, how do you get there?

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You get there by predeciding.

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You get there by putting the right things in, by building yourself into a person of character, by understanding who you are and where you're going prior to the difficulties coming into your life.

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Too many people, too many men are trying to figure it out on the other side of getting knocked down.

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And they can get back up.

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It requires a lot of help.

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Um, our program really honestly is focused primarily on that end, on helping people get back up who didn't prepare for the fall that they were uh going to take.

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But to be a resilient person means I've made the right decisions, I've pre-decided, I know what I'm gonna do when I fall, when I get hurt, when I get knocked down, I'm putting the pieces in that need to be there so that I can continue forward.

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And I think a lot of men get that wrong.

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They think it's toughness.

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They think it's simply being strong, they think it's grinding it out.

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And there is a world of social media influencers that would tell us that's what it's all about.

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And listen, you have to be mentally strong, you have to be focused, you have to be willing to grind it out.

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All of those things are true, but that doesn't make you more or less resilient.

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It just is a tool that you can use to keep moving forward when things get hard.

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I think what you're talking about is uh the spiritual battle.

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That's exactly right.

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I know that's exactly right.

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So use biblical principles and so forth and healing some of these guys, but uh that's what came to my mind is um I'm a I'm a CrossFit idiot.

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And uh, but my my coach once described Do your joints do your joints still work or are they do, but you have to there's a lot outside of CrossFit you have to do to take care of those joints, but it's good.

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I mean, you know, my internal organs are outstanding.

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But um anyway, my coach once said that the CrossFit is a practical battle or practical application of the spiritual battle.

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And that always resonated with me because it's a it is about getting up, and uh, because that thing, that that thing will knock you down.

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And I just I don't know if you're David Goggins guy.

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I am, I'm a I'm a gay David Goggins freak, but just a couple of days ago I saw I mean I've seen thousands of his videos, but yeah, he was speaking at a seminar and a and a gentleman asked him, What can I leave my son?

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And Goggins just went into this thing where he's like, When you get get knocked down, get up and get up fast.

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And I just that word fast really resonated with me as well.

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Um, and so you know Goggins is kind of a grinded out kind of guy, but but there's more to Goggins than that.

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He understands that you've got to change your mindset to be prepared because life is going to knock you down regardless of where you're at.

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It's how, you know, are you are you gonna lay there or are you gonna get up fast?

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And I think um right, I don't know, those are the two things that came to my my mind in your eloquent answer there.

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Um, you know, yeah, you're fighting a spiritual battle, understand that, and then get up fast, you know, let's go.

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Yeah.

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It it's it really is having clarity around the actual fight, the actual battle.

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So knowing what you're doing and why, and then recognizing there are tools that can help you to move forward when the when the battles come, right?

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And so, so yes, to your point, it is a spiritual battle.

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There is a very real spiritual force, uh, whether you know people want to acknowledge that or not.

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I don't know how you could look around our world and not acknowledge that.

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Um, but there are very real spiritual influences that want to prevent us from being fully who God created us to be.

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And in the process of that, often it's a lack of identity.

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I don't know who I am.

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This is why I would say, as a Christian and through our program, uh, I would say you need to learn to identify with that which does not change, with God who is outside of space and time.

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Your job may change, your role may change, your relationships may change.

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Uh, God doesn't change.

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And so we identify with God.

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We identify with what Jesus did for us.

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So that's where I would start with a clear identity and understanding there is a spiritual war.

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Well, why is that important?

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Because we need to understand that there's more at stake than just what we can see and maybe get our minds around, that God has a purpose for us, that He created us to do something important and to accomplish something important.

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And if we're not careful, we can get so wrapped up in the world around us and the brokenness and the hurt and the challenges and the difficulties and the traumas of the past, the rest of it, that we don't fully live out what we were created to be and created to do.

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So we in his image and we have to understand that first.

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So then you look at tools.

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Okay, how do I do that?

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Well, I put the you know, the spiritual pieces in place.

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I know who I am, I understand that.

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I'm rooted in um a clear theology or understanding of who God is and my place in the world.

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So that's the tool.

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I have the right community around me, so I have people that can help me get back up when I get knocked down.

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I'm not waiting to get knocked down to find people that can help me.

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I'm I'm plugged into a great community, uh, hopefully a community of like-minded people.

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And then I regularly, and to your point, regularly do hard things, whether it's CrossFit or something else.

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I trained jujitsu, uh, I run ultramarathons a couple times a year, right?

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I do not because I'm good at any of those things, but because the process of grinding, between your ears, it's a mental process.

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You're exactly right.

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And I know, look, there's nothing you can throw at me that's harder than something I've already done.

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So I'm gonna get back up.

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I have I have trained my mind and my body and my systems to have the response that when I get knocked down, I get back up.

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And because I've already put the right spiritual pieces in place and I've got the right community around me, and I've had the right thoughts, and I've made the right decisions, all of that works together for what purpose to help me to fulfill what God created me to be.

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And so it all works together, but it's understanding there are tools, and there is the goal or the mission.

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I think sometimes we get that mixed up where I like I like Goggins, I get a lot of inspiration from him.

00:16:20.480 --> 00:16:27.279
I think some people take what he says, though, and they make discipline the goal or discipline the target.

00:16:27.440 --> 00:16:34.879
That that's not the target, it's a tool that helps you to get to the target, which is continuing forward and accomplishing your God-given purpose.

00:16:35.039 --> 00:16:37.120
Yes, agree a hundred percent.

00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:41.200
Um let's get back into leadership a little bit here.

00:16:41.360 --> 00:16:46.879
Um, what belief do you hold about leadership that would make some people uncomfortable?

00:16:48.240 --> 00:17:00.799
Well, I alluded to it when we started talking, but um I wrote a book on leadership and and the struggle I had with leadership, and the reason I wrote the book was because I came out of this military culture.

00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:02.159
I was an infantry officer.

00:17:02.399 --> 00:17:05.440
So I would argue I went to the best leadership schools in the world.

00:17:05.519 --> 00:17:08.559
Um, I went to officer candidate school for the Marine Corps.

00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:13.839
Uh, there's another school to follow on for all Marine Corps officers called the basic officer course.

00:17:13.920 --> 00:17:14.799
It's six months long.

00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:16.960
Every Marine Corps officer goes to that school.

00:17:17.119 --> 00:17:20.799
And then from there you go to your MOS school, the school that teaches you how to do your job.

00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:31.279
I was an infantry officer, so I went to 10 weeks of infantry officer course, which is focused on learning how, understanding how to lead Marines in combat.

00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:33.200
That's the only purpose of that school.

00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:35.039
For 10 weeks, you go through that.

00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:40.880
Then I had the opportunity to lead Marines through normal deployment cycles, then leading Marines in combat.

00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:43.839
So I felt like I had been trained to lead.

00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:46.000
I thought I understood what leadership was.

00:17:46.160 --> 00:17:51.440
Leadership is confidence, leadership is being the loudest guy in the room, leadership is being the guy who says we're going over there.

00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:53.200
Leadership is being that guy.

00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:55.039
Leadership is also tied to rank.

00:17:55.200 --> 00:17:57.359
Leadership has all of these components to it.

00:17:57.440 --> 00:17:58.880
So I understood that.

00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:02.880
I left the Marine Corps and transitioned into full-time ministry.

00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:05.200
And that's a whole story in and of itself.

00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:13.359
And in the transition into ministry, I got I became very frustrated, which led to anger, which led to a lot of problems.

00:18:13.519 --> 00:18:15.200
I had to have people help me work through.

00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:20.640
But a big challenge I had in that process was I thought I understood leadership.

00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:29.920
And I was confused why those same principles of be loud and be obnoxious and you know, scream, I know the way that we're supposed to go, didn't work in a church setting with a bunch of volunteers.

00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:34.880
So I had to step back and go, okay, well, then what is leadership?

00:18:35.039 --> 00:18:36.720
Well, in the church world, people know this.

00:18:36.960 --> 00:18:40.240
In the church world, there's this concept called servant leadership.

00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:42.559
Some would call it spiritual leadership.

00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:45.599
And so I got every book I could on those topics.

00:18:45.759 --> 00:18:48.480
Some are very helpful, some I still read today.

00:18:48.799 --> 00:19:05.839
But as I read them, I started to come to the conclusion that what a lot of Christian authors and influencers call spiritual leadership or servant leadership is really the same thing I was doing in the Marine Corps, but now you attach God to it.

00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:09.839
So I defined it this way, and this is not fair to a lot of people.

00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:10.559
I know that.

00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:12.720
There are a lot of great leaders in ministry.

00:19:12.880 --> 00:19:20.240
Um, but but the conclusion I came to in that moment was a lot of this spiritual leadership is manipulation, but you attach God to it.

00:19:20.319 --> 00:19:25.680
So now you can get God to be responsible for getting those people to do what you want them to do anyhow, right?

00:19:25.839 --> 00:19:31.200
I want you to do this, but I'm kind of couching it in spiritual language, so you think God wants you to do that.

00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:33.680
So then I'm I'm in I'm in between these two things.

00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:38.319
So I'm like, well, this doesn't seem right, and this doesn't work.

00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:40.640
So what do I do?

00:19:40.880 --> 00:19:47.440
And I worked through that for a long time, and then the the book that kind of came out of that was just me trying to process it and understand it.

00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:50.480
That was a really long intro to your very simple question.

00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:51.519
Here's what I settled on.

00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:58.000
I mean, um so that that's what brought me to this, and here's where I settled.

00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:09.440
Um I settled on a definition that for me, leadership is taking people from where they are to where they need to be.

00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:13.680
Leadership is taking people from where they are to where they need to be.

00:20:13.759 --> 00:20:23.680
As I mentioned in the beginning, it's using every resource, opportunity, the leverage I have, the relationships I have, whatever I have, for the benefit of the people that I lead.

00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:26.640
It's not about manipulating them to get what I want.

00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:30.160
It's not about using them to accomplish some goal that I have.

00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:32.400
It has nothing to do with me.

00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:41.119
Now, in a corporate sense, in a you know, workplace environment and other environments, there may be a larger goal.

00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:46.079
We need to do this together to accomplish whatever the goal or the mission is of the business or whatever.

00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:50.880
But it's not about me as the leader, it's about you as the person I have the opportunity to lead.

00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:55.599
How can I take you from where you are right now and help you to get to where you really need to be?

00:20:55.839 --> 00:21:01.039
Now, the caveat with that is accomplishing that looks different in every environment.

00:21:01.279 --> 00:21:04.240
So in the military, my job was the same.

00:21:04.480 --> 00:21:05.519
It just looked different.

00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:07.920
There were different tactics, techniques, and procedures.

00:21:08.000 --> 00:21:11.359
That's what we call in the military, different ways to accomplish that.

00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:14.079
In my family, there are different ways to accomplish that.

00:21:14.240 --> 00:21:19.759
In ministry, different ways to accomplish that in a business, different techniques to accomplish that.

00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:26.480
But fundamentally, a leader is someone that recognizes my job is not to get what I want from people.

00:21:26.799 --> 00:21:40.880
My job is to invest everything that I have in the people God has placed into my life to lead them so that at the end of the day, they're better off than they would have been if they didn't have a relationship with me.

00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:42.880
Um, that's not revolutionary.

00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:44.480
People talk about that.

00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:48.960
I just don't think functionally many people believe it or try to exercise it.

00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:49.680
Right.

00:21:50.079 --> 00:21:55.839
Um, so you've talked about the two d dual roles you've had being combat leader versus a pastor.

00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:59.759
It sounds like to me, maybe the pastor maybe tested your character more.

00:22:02.240 --> 00:22:07.839
I always say that I've done combat and I've done ministry, and combat was way easier.

00:22:10.160 --> 00:22:14.799
The hierarchy of the military, if it's right, is extremely helpful.

00:22:14.880 --> 00:22:16.160
It exists for a reason.

00:22:16.400 --> 00:22:20.960
There's clarity around who's in charge, who's responsible, who do who does what.

00:22:21.119 --> 00:22:22.000
That's wonderful.

00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:24.880
The mission, if done right, is clear.

00:22:24.960 --> 00:22:29.599
Now there may be chaos around that mission, but you know, we talk about end state.

00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:36.240
Um, I remember the first schools I was in in the Marine Corps, we would talk about where do you want to be when this fight is over?

00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:38.160
You know, what is the end state?

00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:44.160
So the mission may be get to the place, but the end state, the actual goal is to accomplish, you know, X.

00:22:44.240 --> 00:22:45.119
So what is that?

00:22:45.359 --> 00:22:46.720
You know what that end state is.

00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:48.640
So it's very clear.

00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:56.559
You find yourself then in a ministry environment where so much is not clear.

00:22:56.720 --> 00:22:59.119
Um, you're working with people that are volunteering.

00:22:59.359 --> 00:23:00.240
So that's one thing.

00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:02.720
They don't have to do what you tell them to do.

00:23:03.039 --> 00:23:11.039
So there's a, you know, this motivation and inspiration, and you're trying to mix it all together, right, to help people understand why they should do things.

00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:12.000
So there's that.

00:23:12.319 --> 00:23:18.000
There is just the ambiguous nature of so much of what happens in ministry.

00:23:18.160 --> 00:23:20.799
The Bible is clear, the truth is relevant.

00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:31.119
It's not those things, but functionally, how a ministry or how a church works can be really hard to navigate because there just aren't clear left and rights.

00:23:31.279 --> 00:23:41.119
And so, yeah, it's it's been much more challenging for me at least to work in the ministry environment and now in the nonprofit environment than in the in the military environment.

00:23:41.279 --> 00:23:47.279
Maybe not as dangerous physically, but but um yeah, just harder to navigate for sure.

00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:53.920
What was your lowest private moment after Iraq?

00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:55.759
Not physically, but internally.

00:23:57.839 --> 00:23:58.480
Yeah.

00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:03.279
Well, I can think of a few.

00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:10.799
Uh one of the ones that you know I've talked about, and and it took me a while to struggle through.

00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:18.480
The first, uh, so our Marine Infantry Battalion, 1-5, 1st Battalion, 5th Marines, we were the first Marine Infantry Battalion into Iraq.

00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:22.880
Um, so the war started on March 19th, 20th.

00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:31.839
We were the Marine Infantry Battalion that advanced up the center axis, breached the berm, went into the southern objective, secured that objective.

00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:36.559
The first KIA of the war was one of our lieutenants, Lieutenant Shane Childers.

00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:42.799
And um man, I can't even describe the the that whole night, that whole event.

00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:45.519
You train, you prepare, you do all the things.

00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:52.640
Marines always perform well, but there's a real kind of like surreal sense when the tracers are now coming your direction.

00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:54.160
I've been in a lot of ranges.

00:24:54.400 --> 00:24:56.000
Tracers always go one direction.

00:24:56.160 --> 00:24:58.319
If something flies over your head, everything stops, right?

00:24:58.400 --> 00:24:59.440
That's a bad situation.

00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:03.039
Well, now you're in this environment where the tracers are going both directions.

00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:04.799
Uh, a lot is happening.

00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:11.039
You're seeing things that you've only seen on movies, you you've you've been told that you will experience.

00:25:11.279 --> 00:25:13.759
Um, so all of that's happening.

00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:18.400
We began preparing early in the day.

00:25:18.559 --> 00:25:25.279
We crossed the line of departure, you know, around midnight, went into the country, we're there the next full day.

00:25:25.519 --> 00:25:28.400
So we're up for several days now, a couple days now.

00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:36.160
So you're physically exhausted, emotionally, you've been dealing with things that just, you know, they they offend your sense of right and wrong.

00:25:36.240 --> 00:25:42.960
Uh, you're doing your job, you're trying to figure things out because the battlefield is changing, the situation is not exactly what you thought it would be.

00:25:43.039 --> 00:25:44.960
So you've got all of these things going on.

00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:53.279
And then over the radio, you hear that uh, you know, Lieutenant Childers, who who was a friend, um was shot and killed.

00:25:53.759 --> 00:25:56.720
So all of that happened at the same time.

00:25:56.880 --> 00:26:00.720
And first time I had been in combat, first time any any of any of us had been in combat.

00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:10.720
So first time in combat, first time dealing with you know the live nature of combat and the death that goes along with combat on the enemy side, and now we have one of our guys killed.

00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:21.759
Um I remember going to kind of after all of that, so probably day three, we were called to our battalion commander's vehicle, and uh he gave us kind of the next mission.

00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:24.640
Here's what we're doing next, here's where we're going next, here's what's happening next.

00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:34.079
And so I I think, well, at least for me, I expected him to start with, hey, Shane was killed, we know that.

00:26:34.160 --> 00:26:36.880
Um, talk about it for a minute and move on.

00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:38.880
Didn't even address it.

00:26:39.200 --> 00:26:42.400
He just went right into the next mission and the next thing.

00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:56.960
And and there was a moment, and and I can picture it in my mind, I've talked to him about it since then, but there was a picture, I can picture it in my mind, a moment where it looked like his face, on his face, he recognized like everyone was waiting for him to say something about Lieutenant Childers, about Shane.

00:26:57.519 --> 00:26:58.880
And so he stopped.

00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:00.880
So he gave us the mission, this is what we need to do.

00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:05.759
He stopped, and and he said something like this.

00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:10.559
Um he said, Look, I know Shane was killed, and that hurts.

00:27:10.799 --> 00:27:13.119
That's something that all of us have to deal with.

00:27:13.519 --> 00:27:22.640
And we will take a time, we will take the necessary time when this is over to memorialize him, to talk about him, and to grieve.

00:27:22.880 --> 00:27:24.480
But now is not that time.

00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:27.759
There are a lot of people that need us to do our job.

00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:30.799
There are a lot of people that will get hurt if we don't do our job.

00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:32.880
And so we're not forgetting what happened.

00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:34.559
We'll come back to that.

00:27:34.640 --> 00:27:37.359
Um, but we now have a mission to accomplish.

00:27:37.519 --> 00:27:39.119
We lost other Marines along the way.

00:27:39.200 --> 00:27:40.079
This was the very beginning.

00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:41.680
This was the first time we had experienced that.

00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:45.279
But I remember walking away from that, like almost betrayed.

00:27:45.440 --> 00:27:49.440
Like it just was very hard for me to reconcile.

00:27:50.160 --> 00:27:57.200
Um since then, man, I've written about this, I've talked about this, but what an incredible leadership lesson.

00:27:57.440 --> 00:28:00.319
That was a leader doing the hard thing.

00:28:00.559 --> 00:28:15.119
You talk about courage and leadership, doing the hard thing to look strong leaders in the face and say, I know we just experienced a deep loss, but we have a job to do, and if we don't do that job, there's a price to pay.

00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:18.240
But the way I received it in the moment was very different than that.

00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:20.160
It was very hard for me to reconcile.

00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:28.480
Uh again, so many other things going on, but that was a I don't know if I would define that as a low moment, but a very difficult moment that I had to move past.

00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:36.160
But I mean, I've never been in war.

00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:40.079
I don't I couldn't pretend to relate to what you're saying.

00:28:40.319 --> 00:28:47.519
But I, you know, you know, you watch the movies and you know, and a few good men, I think there were some really good lessons in that movie.

00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:50.319
And you know, we follow orders or people die.

00:28:50.799 --> 00:28:53.440
And that's that was kind of what that guy was telling you.

00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:55.359
Like, we don't have time.

00:28:56.559 --> 00:29:00.480
Right now, is we keep we don't have the time for this, or other people are gonna die.

00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:03.039
And that's that's kind of the way the Marine Corps is set up.

00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:04.960
I mean, it's like next, you know.

00:29:05.119 --> 00:29:10.000
Um, but from an emotional standpoint, I I mean that's that's a big ask for anybody.

00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:18.960
It it it really is, and then that's which leads me to what you're doing now is you're dealing with people that are hurt from the war, that are healing from those experiences.

00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:24.799
And you know, I know that you work with the PTSD from a big biblical perspective.

00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:31.279
Um how do you how do you talk about faith what without using it as a band-aid?

00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:37.279
Yeah, well, that's man, that's a great way to frame that because faith should not be a band-aid.

00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:41.200
I've talked to um, well, I'll say one.

00:29:41.279 --> 00:29:51.519
I talked to one psychologist, psychiatrist, and um what she said to me was add faith to what you're doing if it if it's helpful.

00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:53.599
Uh, but let's start over here.

00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:56.960
Let's start with the clinical approaches to you know the various things that we do.

00:29:57.119 --> 00:29:59.119
She said, I believe faith should be kept in your back pocket.

00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:02.079
It's something you should have access to, but not something you should lead with.

00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:07.599
Well, I disagree with that because that's using it as a band-aid or a medication or just a clinical.

00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:26.000
And so I believe and we believe, we talk about uh therapies and you know, the clinical approaches to a lot of the things that we deal with, but that has to be after you establish a foundation of faith.

00:30:26.160 --> 00:30:30.960
Because if you do all of those other things and you don't know who you are or why you're here, what is my purpose?

00:30:31.119 --> 00:30:31.839
Where am I going?

00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:33.279
Why should I have hope?

00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:37.279
If you haven't answered those questions first, then the rest of it is going to fall short.

00:30:37.519 --> 00:30:38.880
Yeah, can't help anybody.

00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:41.839
I mean, you can't.

00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:43.599
And so that's where we start.

00:30:43.680 --> 00:30:47.920
And we start with really that conversation around identity.

00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:48.799
Who am I?

00:30:49.039 --> 00:30:59.279
So one of the struggles that you're having, and one of the reasons you're self-medicating or you're taking prescription medication that numbs you out, or you're getting involved in these things, is because you don't know clearly who you are right now.

00:30:59.359 --> 00:31:04.880
And if you don't know who you are, you haven't identified this is who I am, then you don't know why you're here.

00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:08.799
So you don't have a clear identity, you also then don't have a clear purpose.

00:31:09.039 --> 00:31:14.079
And if you don't have a clear purpose, then there really is no hope because nothing gets better.

00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:15.440
I don't even know why I'm here.

00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:20.559
There's nothing that I look down the road and think this is going to get better, this is going to make this situation better.

00:31:20.720 --> 00:31:26.880
So without clarity around my purpose, there's no clarity around, or no clarity around my identity, there's no clarity around my purpose.

00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:28.240
And if there's no purpose, there's no hope.

00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:42.400
And if there's no hope, then um I either need to just numb myself out, dive into as much enjoyment as I possibly can until you know I spin out, or, and a lot of people make this decision, just end my life, because there's really nothing here.

00:31:42.720 --> 00:31:47.200
And so we start with that conversation around who am I?

00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:51.039
Out of uniform, out of that job, who am I?

00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:52.480
And then what does that mean?

00:31:52.640 --> 00:31:54.640
And we use a biblical framework.

00:31:54.799 --> 00:31:57.359
This isn't just us telling you what we think you should do.

00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:01.279
This is from us, God the creator.

00:32:01.519 --> 00:32:02.720
So he created.

00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:04.720
So if he created, then there's design.

00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:06.799
And if there's design, we need to understand what that is.

00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:08.400
What did he create us to do?

00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:10.160
How did he create us to act?

00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:11.680
How did he create us to think?

00:32:11.839 --> 00:32:12.960
How did he create us to feel?

00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:15.519
How did he create us to interact in relationships?

00:32:15.680 --> 00:32:22.319
And so we just walk through that and just go, this is what the Bible says about how you should function in this world.

00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:34.960
One thing that makes this really accessible, I think, to the students that come through our program, though, because you could go to a Christian program, you could go to a church, you could go to a lot of places to get the same information.

00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:43.920
But one of the things that makes this accessible is that every instructor in our program, everyone who leads a breakout, a team, started as a student.

00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:51.200
And so they all came through as students, and then they come through a long process, about a year-long process of leadership training.

00:32:51.440 --> 00:32:55.599
And then they're standing in front of a class of people with a similar background to them.

00:32:55.680 --> 00:33:05.759
So now someone's sitting on the couch or sitting in sitting there, they're listening to someone talk who was in combat, was in the military, was a first responder, whatever the case.

00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:09.839
So there's a shared background or shared experience.

00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:15.839
And that person standing up there is not a pastor, they're not a clinician, they're not a doctor, they're, they're, they're none of those things.

00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:18.480
They're a person just like the people they're talking to.

00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:24.319
And before they teach a class, we require them, as part of the process, to tell their story.

00:33:24.559 --> 00:33:25.519
So they get up.

00:33:25.680 --> 00:33:26.880
This is who I am.

00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:29.200
These are the things I did, the struggles that I had.

00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:30.480
I ended up here.

00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:32.640
This is what I learned while I was here.

00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:36.799
I don't have it all figured out, but I know where you are because I've been there.

00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:39.839
And I just want to help you walk this out, and we're going to get there together.

00:33:39.920 --> 00:33:44.240
So it becomes very much a peer-to-peer, let's get there together environment.

00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:53.440
And so the conversation around faith is very organic because it's not, again, a pastor trying to convince people that faith is important.

00:33:53.599 --> 00:34:02.400
It's someone standing in front of the class saying, I tried everything else, and you guys have probably tried everything else, and something was missing, and I found the missing piece.

00:34:02.559 --> 00:34:06.559
The missing piece was that foundation of faith, and we're going to talk about what that looks like.

00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:08.239
Awesome.

00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:19.280
Um what's the difference between this is a for somebody who's not been through war combat, I almost feel guilty asking this question.

00:34:19.599 --> 00:34:23.119
But what's the difference between trauma and excuse?

00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:27.280
Oh, that's a great question.

00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:29.519
I talk about this a lot.

00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:35.920
So um here's how I say it there's a difference between a reason and an excuse.

00:34:36.079 --> 00:34:38.559
This is this is what how I kind of frame that often.

00:34:38.800 --> 00:34:41.920
There's a difference between a reason and an excuse.

00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:51.280
What happens often is that people will excuse their bad behavior because of a real thing, because of a reason.

00:34:52.000 --> 00:34:56.639
Well, it's okay to have a reason, but it's not okay to excuse bad behavior.

00:34:57.119 --> 00:35:05.280
So it's okay to say I feel this way because of the trauma that I've experienced, or you know, whatever's gone on in my life that's brought me this place.

00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:09.599
That's a reason I'm angry all the time.

00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:12.960
I, you know, I'm an ass to be around, like whatever, right?

00:35:13.119 --> 00:35:19.760
Like, okay, well, there are reasons, but those reasons never excuse bad behavior.

00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:26.559
It's never okay to act in a way that hurts other people, that you know, does all these things.

00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:29.519
So two things can be true at the same time.

00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:35.280
Yes, there's a reason, but there's never an excuse for bad behavior, which should lead to the next thing.

00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:39.280
Let's figure out how to address the reason and move forward in a good way.

00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:39.840
Yeah.

00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:48.639
If a man says, I'm fine, but you know he's not, what are the tells?

00:35:49.440 --> 00:35:51.679
I mean, you've seen I'm sure you've seen it.

00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:57.599
Yeah, well, I mean the easiest, yeah, the easiest answer to that is just withdrawing.

00:35:57.760 --> 00:36:08.480
It is someone that does not engage in meaningful conversations, that doesn't really have meaningful relationships, uh, that is withdrawn, that is isolated.

00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:11.679
That's that's probably the easiest answer to that question.

00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:17.280
Um, it what's funny though is I think as men, we have an intuition about that.

00:36:17.679 --> 00:36:25.519
We know when a guy is is putting up a facade, is not addressing things that are real.

00:36:25.760 --> 00:36:26.320
It's funny.

00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:31.119
So you say you come from the CrossFit community, and you know, in the jiu-jitsu community is very similar.

00:36:31.280 --> 00:36:38.559
Like you know, the joke is the joke is always like, how do you know uh someone trains CrossFit because they tell you, right?

00:36:38.639 --> 00:36:40.320
Well, the the joke is the same for jujitsu.

00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:42.400
How do you know someone trains jujitsu because they're gonna tell you?

00:36:42.639 --> 00:36:42.960
Right?

00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:52.079
Well, those communities are very immersive, and I think a lot of people find you know tremendous relationships there, a great community there, and people that encourage them.

00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:54.159
And so they're very helpful in that sense.

00:36:54.320 --> 00:37:09.679
And a lot of hurting broken people, particularly men who are struggling with trauma and just difficulty in their lives, find themselves in those communities because you can go deep, you can grind, you can hurt, you can build relationships with people.

00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:18.639
But if you really take a step back and look at what's happening, it's extremely superficial, which is crazy that you can spend 10 hours a week with someone.

00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:22.960
I mean, in jujitsu, 10 hours a week rolling on the ground with someone, you know, whatever.

00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:24.800
It's very close physically.

00:37:25.039 --> 00:37:27.599
You you do know about people's lives, kind of.

00:37:27.760 --> 00:37:31.599
You're sort of involved in what's happening, but nothing real is happening.

00:37:31.840 --> 00:37:38.480
No real conversations, uh, not addressing anything substantial in most cases.

00:37:39.280 --> 00:37:40.960
So we have an intuition for that.

00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:44.159
And I think I think it's trust your intuition.

00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:51.280
So this man, this is something I've really had to learn because I'm I'm kind of a like live and let live kind of person, like naturally.

00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:56.239
This is not my like I okay, if you want to do whatever you want to do, it doesn't matter.

00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:59.360
It does matter, but I'm not gonna dive into your stuff, right?

00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:00.960
Well, trust your intuition.

00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:08.719
If you feel like someone is withdrawing or someone's not having a real conversation about something, pull them out of their environment, take them to coffee.

00:38:08.880 --> 00:38:12.000
Hey, let's get some coffee and talk and come up with a reason.

00:38:12.079 --> 00:38:14.639
You know, I like what you do in business, I'd love to talk about that.

00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:15.119
Whatever.

00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:21.599
Come up with a reason and just develop a genuine relationship with someone.

00:38:22.000 --> 00:38:26.400
And a lot of times that will lead to those deeper conversations.

00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:39.360
But um, yeah, there are signs, people I isolating, people pulling back, people unwilling to have conversations about anything that is, you know, emotionally or spiritually or relationally deep in any way.

00:38:39.679 --> 00:38:46.719
Um, a lot of high-performing people are are people who are really hurting, which is really interesting.

00:38:46.880 --> 00:39:07.519
Um, you see this so much in in the ultra-marathon community where people who can grind for you know 20 hours, um, I mean, hard, strong people are so broken and so hurt, and they're trying to cover that up with the other stuff that they're doing, but they won't ever talk about anything real.

00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:13.440
Um, yeah, trust your intuition on that one and and go out of your way to just develop a real relationship.

00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:16.800
Don't back someone into a corner, but just develop a real relationship with them.

00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:17.679
Yeah.

00:39:18.000 --> 00:39:22.239
Um that was my favorite question and answer in the entire podcast so far.

00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:22.960
That was awesome.

00:39:23.199 --> 00:39:27.280
Um, so let's shift in a little bit into your march or die philosophy.

00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:29.920
Then the title of this podcast is going to be called March or Die.

00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:33.119
So, what does march or die really mean?

00:39:33.280 --> 00:39:34.320
Is it discipline?

00:39:34.480 --> 00:39:35.760
Is it faithfulness?

00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:36.639
Is it movement?

00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:38.320
Is it obedience?

00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:41.599
Uh explain, explain it to me like I'm a 19-year-old Marine.

00:39:41.679 --> 00:39:43.360
What does march or die mean?

00:39:44.000 --> 00:39:48.880
Yeah, well, that's why I like the phrase march or die because uh it's it's marine proof.

00:39:49.039 --> 00:39:50.800
So I'll tell you where it came from.

00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:58.239
I checked in as a young second lieutenant to Charlie Company, 1st Battalion, 5th Marines, is a rifle company.

00:39:58.480 --> 00:39:59.119
Great job.

00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:00.239
I loved leading there.

00:40:00.320 --> 00:40:00.719
It was fun.

00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:01.599
I learned a lot.

00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:02.559
But there was a motto.

00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:04.079
They had a motto, it was on a t-shirt.

00:40:04.159 --> 00:40:06.639
Every marine unit has a t-shirt with a motto on it.

00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:09.119
And uh, for some reason, there's always a skeleton.

00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:13.760
I don't know what all that means, but but the motto for Charlie Company 1.5 was march or die.

00:40:14.000 --> 00:40:15.280
And I remember reading that.

00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:18.639
I'd I'd been, you know, been there for a day or something.

00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:22.239
I saw them like, that's brilliant, because it makes so much sense.

00:40:22.480 --> 00:40:28.239
You can stay where you are and die, or you can march, you can take the next step.

00:40:28.480 --> 00:40:34.480
Um, I learned later that, like a lot of things in the Marine Corps, that was ripped off of the French Foreign Legion, right?

00:40:34.559 --> 00:40:39.280
So they didn't create it, they just stole it from somewhere, which is kind of marine, uh, a marine thing.

00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:44.000
Um, but I always loved that saying France military made that up, but okay.

00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:45.280
I I digress, right?

00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:46.320
Yeah, it was stole it.

00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:51.519
Um it was it was a foreign legion, so I mean, not really French, right?

00:40:51.760 --> 00:40:55.519
But um, so I always loved the saying.

00:40:55.679 --> 00:41:07.599
Well, fast forward several years, I found myself uh, you know, in a pretty intense firefight on a bridge in Iraq, and that's what I write about, and I draw from that five principles of resilience.

00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:10.559
But the fundamental principle is that march or die principle.

00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:15.280
We we got into this firefight, things didn't unfold exactly as we had hoped.

00:41:15.440 --> 00:41:17.360
Um, it was an ambush situation.

00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:26.000
We dealt with one enemy unit, we had to push to the top of the bridge to um deal with the mortars that were falling around us.

00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:28.079
It's kind of a big story, lots happening.

00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:36.960
And so I pushed our unit up on top of this bridge, and it got us to a place where we could see the enemy, but it also put us right in the middle of the X.

00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:40.079
This is where they wanted us because it was a pre-planned target.

00:41:40.239 --> 00:41:45.360
So there were these mortar positions where they were trying to push us to was right where I pushed us to.

00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:47.599
And the mortar rounds fell around us.

00:41:47.679 --> 00:41:53.360
It went from bad to worse, and it was getting worse very, very quickly.

00:41:53.599 --> 00:42:02.800
And it's crazy what you think about right in those moments, but for whatever reason, that that stupid motto popped into my mind, march or die.

00:42:02.960 --> 00:42:05.199
Like, shoot, like we stay here, we die.

00:42:06.079 --> 00:42:06.639
That's gonna happen.

00:42:06.719 --> 00:42:07.440
It's inevitable.

00:42:07.599 --> 00:42:14.000
I mean, it's just a matter of minutes, or we can just get off the X, get to the next place, and address the enemy.

00:42:14.159 --> 00:42:15.679
And um, it happened that fast.

00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:16.960
The Marines moved fast.

00:42:17.039 --> 00:42:19.119
Obviously, we didn't die on top of that bridge.

00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:23.280
We moved to the road, dealt with that enemy, and came out on the other side of that.

00:42:23.519 --> 00:42:28.639
Um, but when that was over, I obviously spent a lot of time thinking about that.

00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:32.239
And I've thought about that story, you know, probably thousands of times since then.

00:42:32.480 --> 00:42:39.760
But that is, to me, like the most basic principle for living a resilient life.

00:42:40.079 --> 00:42:42.559
You find yourself in a difficult situation.

00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:51.760
Now, it may be traumas of the past that are holding you back, it may be an obstacle in front of you, something that happened you didn't expect, a relationship, a financial situation, doesn't matter.

00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:53.920
But there's something that's providing resistance.

00:42:54.079 --> 00:42:55.440
We'll call that the enemy.

00:42:56.159 --> 00:42:57.760
There's resistance.

00:42:58.000 --> 00:42:59.039
Resistance to what?

00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:00.480
Forward movement.

00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:04.000
Well, in those moments, you have to make a decision.

00:43:04.239 --> 00:43:06.800
Are you going to stay where you are and die?

00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:08.400
And I have to define die.

00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:11.440
This doesn't mean physical death, although some people make that decision.

00:43:11.519 --> 00:43:13.760
I can't go forward anymore, so I'll just end my life.

00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:14.639
That's what I thought.

00:43:14.960 --> 00:43:19.199
When I talk about that, it's laying down, it's giving up, it's raising the white flag.

00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:24.800
It is that spiritual and emotional and relational deadness that a lot of people have, right?

00:43:24.960 --> 00:43:25.760
And we know these people.

00:43:25.920 --> 00:43:27.280
These are guys who've given up.

00:43:27.440 --> 00:43:31.519
Instead of engaging with their families, they play video games or look at porn or do whatever.

00:43:31.679 --> 00:43:33.760
They're not engaged in anything meaningful.

00:43:33.920 --> 00:43:36.559
Their family might describe them as emotionally distant.

00:43:36.719 --> 00:43:40.400
They're going to work, they're doing the stuff, but they're not accomplishing anything.

00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:41.119
They're dead.

00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:43.360
But that's a decision they've made.

00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:44.559
Life got hard.

00:43:44.639 --> 00:43:45.599
They made a decision.

00:43:45.760 --> 00:43:49.440
Well, the next or the better decision is to what?

00:43:50.320 --> 00:43:50.800
March.

00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:51.760
Get the hell out of there.

00:43:51.920 --> 00:43:53.519
Just put get out of there.

00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:55.920
Put one foot in front of the other.

00:43:56.000 --> 00:43:59.760
And the word march is so important because when you march, you don't exactly know where you're going.

00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:00.800
Most of the time.

00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:02.559
You don't know how long you're going to be doing this.

00:44:02.800 --> 00:44:05.039
You can't see the end from here, maybe.

00:44:05.599 --> 00:44:13.519
But what you do know is that in order to march, I have to put one foot in front of the other and then do that again and then do that again and then do that again.

00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:15.840
And so it's not about figuring it all out.

00:44:16.000 --> 00:44:19.840
It's not about understanding the complete combat environment that you find yourself in.

00:44:20.000 --> 00:44:22.559
It's about saying, I'm not going to stay here and die.

00:44:23.199 --> 00:44:25.840
So I'm going to keep moving forward.

00:44:26.159 --> 00:44:28.079
And you ask, what is it?

00:44:28.159 --> 00:44:29.119
It's all of those things.

00:44:29.280 --> 00:44:31.440
It's spiritual, it's faith, it's trusting God.

00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:35.119
It's just what we talked about earlier, getting up, and I'm going to keep moving forward.

00:44:35.360 --> 00:44:39.760
It's just saying, as long as I'm drawing breath, I want to live a meaningful life.

00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:43.199
And the only way to do that is one step at a time.

00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:44.800
And you just keep moving forward.

00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:46.159
And it's amazing.

00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:50.079
You know, I've described it this way: persistence is a superpower.

00:44:50.320 --> 00:44:54.719
Um, victory doesn't go to the perfect, it goes to the persistent.

00:44:54.960 --> 00:44:58.000
And the reason is because there are so few persistent people in the world.

00:44:58.159 --> 00:44:58.400
Yeah.

00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:03.840
You don't have to be the smartest, you don't have to be the most talented, you don't have to be the one that has it all figured out.

00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:05.360
Just be the one that doesn't quit.

00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:05.840
Exactly.

00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:06.719
Just keep moving forward.

00:45:06.960 --> 00:45:07.440
Exactly.

00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:11.360
And if you do that, you will find victory on the other side of that.

00:45:11.519 --> 00:45:12.639
So that's the philosophy.

00:45:12.719 --> 00:45:16.320
There are a lot of principles, a lot of things that I built around that and talk about my podcast.

00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:20.000
That's what we talk about, how to move forward when life is falling apart.

00:45:20.159 --> 00:45:21.519
But that is the principle.

00:45:21.679 --> 00:45:28.159
If you know nothing else about what I talk about, other than that, that's all you really need.

00:45:28.320 --> 00:45:29.199
Just keep moving forward.

00:45:29.360 --> 00:45:34.960
I love the resistance thing, you know, and I love, you know, it's life is conflict.

00:45:35.039 --> 00:45:54.079
And, you know, I had an earlier podcast that of a dear friend of mine and mentor, it's actually a political leader, but he's he would, you know, I was very young when I heard him say this, but he said, and it's always stuck with me, and that is uh without friction, there is no movement.

00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:57.440
So the friction is just a natural thing that occurs.

00:45:57.599 --> 00:45:57.920
Yeah.

00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:02.960
You're either gonna stay, you're gonna lay there and do nothing, or you're gonna move.

00:46:03.119 --> 00:46:07.280
And that's mean, yep, it's it's all it's all tied together.

00:46:07.679 --> 00:46:09.440
Yeah, and that is the whole thing.

00:46:09.760 --> 00:46:13.360
But you know, a big part of it, and that's why conversations like this are so important.

00:46:13.599 --> 00:46:16.639
A big part of it is recognizing what you just said.

00:46:16.960 --> 00:46:24.880
Because so many of us, we think, I'm the only one who's ever been through this, I'm the only one who's ever experienced this, no one else knows what it's like to feel this way or to do this thing.

00:46:25.039 --> 00:46:27.519
This is unusual, this is out of the norm.

00:46:27.679 --> 00:46:29.840
Like, no, man, like this is life.

00:46:30.000 --> 00:46:30.719
This is life.

00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:37.039
I talk to my young adult kids, and sometimes they'll talk about you know, family stuff or whatever, work stuff.

00:46:37.280 --> 00:46:39.360
I'm like, yeah, welcome to being an adult.

00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:46.880
Like, this is this is what it is, and that's okay, but just recognize that and make a decision that you'll keep moving forward in spite of it.

00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:47.840
I agree.

00:46:48.079 --> 00:46:49.760
So now we're gonna flip the coin a little bit.

00:46:49.920 --> 00:46:54.000
March or die, we just talked about the bravado of it, and you know, we just pumped ourselves up.

00:46:54.079 --> 00:46:57.119
So now I'm gonna bring us back down here for a second.

00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:03.199
Is there is there and I my my answer to this is absolutely not, but I'm interested in your taking this.

00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:08.800
Is there danger in the phrase march or die becoming toxic?

00:47:10.000 --> 00:47:12.880
A favorite word out there these days, toxic.

00:47:13.199 --> 00:47:16.320
Is there danger in that phrase becoming toxic?

00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:19.920
Can I ask me to absolutely expound on that a little bit?

00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:20.960
What do you mean by by that?

00:47:21.039 --> 00:47:23.599
How does it become can grit become denial?

00:47:23.760 --> 00:47:25.840
Can toughness become avoidance?

00:47:26.400 --> 00:47:26.800
Yep.

00:47:27.039 --> 00:47:28.239
Okay, yeah, great.

00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:32.400
So this goes back to my answer for the record is hell no, but go ahead.

00:47:32.639 --> 00:47:34.239
Yeah, yeah.

00:47:34.400 --> 00:47:37.679
I mean, I I would say absolutely not.

00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:46.880
In fact, if you're breathing, the only way to live a life of meaning and value is to keep marching forward.

00:47:47.360 --> 00:47:55.920
Life, like real life, not just breathing, not just occupying space, but real life is progress.

00:47:56.320 --> 00:47:57.199
It's progress.

00:47:57.360 --> 00:48:15.679
This is, man, I love to see, you know, people in their 80s and early 90s or whatever who check out books at the library and they're reading self-help stuff, and they're, you know, I know some folks like this at church, they'll be like, ah man, I just watched this documentary on this thing and I learned these things.

00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:20.480
Or I'll have I'll meet people in their you know late 80s, or I listen to your podcast, that was really helpful.

00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:21.920
I'm like, dude, that's crazy.

00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:22.400
Why?

00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:27.679
Because they've made a decision that as long as they're alive and as long as they're able to function, they're gonna keep moving forward.

00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:29.840
That is meaningful life.

00:48:30.000 --> 00:48:30.960
That's it.

00:48:31.280 --> 00:48:39.199
I do think I probably wouldn't use the word toxic, but certainly misplaced.

00:48:40.000 --> 00:48:49.519
If when people hear the phrase march or die, what they think that means is just keep grinding, try harder, get up earlier, do more.

00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:53.039
That is not even a little bit of what I'm suggesting.

00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:58.880
Because that leads into this idea that the discipline of the thing is the goal.

00:48:59.119 --> 00:49:06.800
Um, if I was just working harder, if I was just trying more, the reason, the reason my life is falling apart is because I'm a failure.

00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:10.480
And that that is what people can take away from that.

00:49:11.360 --> 00:49:17.360
Again, it's it's saying I need to maybe reach out to some people that can help me with this.

00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:21.199
I need to um put some pieces in place.

00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:22.480
Maybe I do need to grind.

00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:30.400
Maybe I know as I look at my life, I'm not trying hard enough, I'm not getting up early enough, uh, I'm not you know putting in enough hours, I'm spending too much time watching TV.

00:49:30.480 --> 00:49:32.159
So it's honest self-evaluation.

00:49:32.320 --> 00:49:39.360
It can be all of those things, but it's not the goal, it isn't just moving forward.

00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:44.800
The goal is moving forward in a meaningful way and accomplishing what God has set in front of you.

00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:52.800
And so um, I don't think it's toxic, but I think a lot of people, you know, we'll say someone said this to me the yesterday.

00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:56.000
Um they use that phrase manosphere, right?

00:49:56.079 --> 00:50:01.679
You look at the social media world and you see so much of the manosphere, which is is that it's just grind and grind and try harder.

00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:08.480
And you know, if you cared more, well, dude, there are so many guys who just have nothing left to give.

00:50:08.639 --> 00:50:18.960
And if you tell them that it's just about trying harder or the reason they failed is because they weren't doing enough, um, you might as well step on their throat while they're laying on the ground.

00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:21.360
Well, it goes that's not what I'm talking about.

00:50:21.599 --> 00:50:24.960
It's about keeping this have a purpose, you know.

00:50:25.199 --> 00:50:25.360
Right.

00:50:25.920 --> 00:50:30.159
Anyone can grind, but if you don't, if you're grinding without purpose, why why are you grinding?

00:50:30.320 --> 00:50:31.760
I mean that's that is exactly right.

00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:32.719
That's exactly right.

00:50:32.880 --> 00:50:33.199
Yeah.

00:50:33.360 --> 00:50:38.000
And so I think if people hear that phrase, march or die, and it's it becomes that, like just grind.

00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:40.800
Um, that's that's not what I'm saying.

00:50:41.119 --> 00:50:46.079
But giving up, quitting, not grinding, that's not an option.

00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:48.159
But you're doing it for a reason.

00:50:48.320 --> 00:50:52.239
You're doing it because there's more to life than just staying where you are and being stuck.

00:50:52.639 --> 00:50:55.679
What does uh marching look like when you don't feel motivated?

00:50:55.840 --> 00:50:58.000
Because most people are waiting to feel ready.

00:50:58.079 --> 00:51:02.880
Like everybody's waiting for the, you know, they're waiting until New Year's or they're waiting until next week, or they're waiting this and that.

00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:06.320
But so what is what does marching look like when you don't feel motivated?

00:51:06.639 --> 00:51:10.079
Man, that is that's the the big question.

00:51:10.239 --> 00:51:13.599
Um it's taking the next step.

00:51:14.239 --> 00:51:25.760
Whether you feel motivated or not, if you're waiting to feel motivated, you'll never do anything difficult because that natural friction exists.

00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:26.639
We talked about that.

00:51:26.800 --> 00:51:32.559
Those obstacles, those uh challenges come into your life and they're present.

00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:38.320
And if you're waiting to feel like you need to move forward, you never will.

00:51:38.480 --> 00:51:49.280
If it's uh watching another video or listening to another podcast or reading another book, and that's what the thing that will motivate you, you'll be motivated today, and then you'll wake up tomorrow and feel a whole lot less motivated.

00:51:49.440 --> 00:51:53.119
You have to just make a decision and then follow through on your decisions.

00:51:53.199 --> 00:51:58.559
And that may be the very first step in marching is developing the character to just keep your word.

00:51:59.119 --> 00:52:03.360
I think often starting small is the answer.

00:52:03.440 --> 00:52:08.960
You know, it's funny, I was thinking about this this morning actually, um, when with people that that work out.

00:52:09.039 --> 00:52:11.440
And I've been talking to some people I'm trying to encourage to get into the gym.

00:52:11.599 --> 00:52:18.159
And and sometimes it's like, well, I don't want to go to the gym because I just don't have 90 minutes to devote to that or whatever.

00:52:18.400 --> 00:52:21.039
Well, then go and spend 15 minutes in the gym.

00:52:21.280 --> 00:52:26.559
Get up and drive to the gym, get out, check in, look at the equipment, walk around, go back to your car.

00:52:26.719 --> 00:52:28.159
Like, like that's a step.

00:52:28.239 --> 00:52:32.639
It's a really small step and it's a slow step, but it's just walk through the door.

00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:34.159
That's walk through the door.

00:52:35.039 --> 00:52:36.480
You don't have to do all the things.

00:52:36.559 --> 00:52:38.639
And that's what, again, what I love about marching.

00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:42.239
It's not about having the whole thing figured out, it's about just taking the next step.

00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:44.639
And maybe the next step for you is a small step.

00:52:44.800 --> 00:52:47.599
Maybe the next step for you is getting up 30 minutes earlier.

00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:50.239
Maybe the next step for you is cutting out sugar.

00:52:50.480 --> 00:52:54.239
Maybe the next step for you is reading your Bible for 10 minutes a day.

00:52:54.400 --> 00:53:01.599
Maybe the next step for you is setting up a date night with your spouse once a month.

00:53:02.079 --> 00:53:08.559
Take the next step, whatever the next step is, but don't wait till you feel like you want to do that.

00:53:08.639 --> 00:53:10.000
I think this is the difference.

00:53:10.239 --> 00:53:15.599
Um I wish I could remember who said this, and I can't even explain it right uh the way they did.

00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:20.000
But I think the difference between being a professional and being an amateur is exactly that.

00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:23.840
You want to be a professional, then you do the right thing even when you don't feel like it.

00:53:24.480 --> 00:53:28.239
Uh amateurs wait for motivation, and when they feel like it, they do it.

00:53:28.480 --> 00:53:32.639
You'll never do anything meaningful if you're waiting to feel like it.

00:53:32.800 --> 00:53:36.960
Now, thankfully, feelings come on the other side of doing the thing.

00:53:37.119 --> 00:53:42.000
Um, it's amazing how you go to the gym and say, I'm only gonna be here for 15 minutes, and you stay for an hour and a half, right?

00:53:42.239 --> 00:53:47.840
Um, motivation comes, but motivation follows doing the right thing.

00:53:48.159 --> 00:53:49.519
Absolutely.

00:53:51.039 --> 00:53:52.079
Last question, sir.

00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:53.440
This has been a great discussion.

00:53:53.519 --> 00:53:54.559
I've really enjoyed it.

00:53:54.719 --> 00:54:06.480
Um if you could look at the 22-year-old version of yourself before Iraq and give him one sentence, what would it be?

00:54:10.800 --> 00:54:13.760
I probably have paragraphs, not just one sentence.

00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:29.920
I I think probably the 22-year-old version of myself needed to um be a little more humble and needed to be connected to people in a real way that were further along than I was.

00:54:30.159 --> 00:54:34.239
And if I had had those people in my life early on, I would have avoided some real hardship.

00:54:34.559 --> 00:54:36.400
So be humble.

00:54:36.880 --> 00:54:42.400
Um a 22-year-old Marine Infantry officer is not known for his humility.

00:54:42.719 --> 00:54:47.440
Be humble and surround yourself with the right people who can help you move forward.

00:54:47.599 --> 00:54:48.079
Yep.

00:54:48.320 --> 00:54:49.679
Great, great advice.

00:54:49.920 --> 00:54:52.880
Uh, Jeremy, how do uh how do my listeners get a hold of you?

00:54:52.960 --> 00:55:04.239
Um, if if you're a veteran, I mean, basically, if you're a veteran in need and you are hurting and need someone to reach out to, I think uh you'd be a great, great step, a great first start here.

00:55:04.400 --> 00:55:05.920
How do how would someone get a hold of you?

00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:06.719
Where do we find you?

00:55:06.880 --> 00:55:10.719
And tell us about tell us where we get a hold of your and your podcaster and all that good jazz.

00:55:11.039 --> 00:55:13.679
Give us all your all your places to go.

00:55:14.079 --> 00:55:14.400
All right.

00:55:14.480 --> 00:55:15.519
Well, it's real simple.

00:55:15.599 --> 00:55:19.519
For me, um Jeremy Stolnecker on any social platform.

00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:20.079
It's all there.

00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:22.639
S-T-A-L-C-C-C-I-S-C-K-E-R.

00:55:22.800 --> 00:55:24.320
Of course, we'll have all this in the description.

00:55:24.400 --> 00:55:25.599
But that's it.

00:55:25.840 --> 00:55:32.079
And uh, you can find me, you know, on whatever social platform you like, and then from there you can learn about the podcast and the other things.

00:55:32.320 --> 00:55:40.480
Um, but probably the easiest starting point for those who are looking for help, whether it's resources or a program or whatever, is just Mighty Oaks programs.

00:55:40.639 --> 00:55:42.400
MightyOaks programs.org.

00:55:42.639 --> 00:55:43.519
That's our website.

00:55:43.679 --> 00:55:46.719
And from there, everything is linked out and everything's explained.

00:55:46.880 --> 00:55:48.480
So yeah, check it out.

00:55:48.639 --> 00:55:55.599
Um, no cost to the service member, first responder to attend the program, no cost for travel to get to the program.

00:55:55.679 --> 00:56:01.280
We do everything we can to eliminate any barriers and uh get you the help that you need.

00:56:01.360 --> 00:56:02.159
So please check it out.

00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:03.280
Great, that's awesome.

00:56:03.440 --> 00:56:09.760
I hope, I hope our listeners, if even if you're not a veteran yourself or you know somebody in need, maybe we can point them in the right direction.

00:56:10.079 --> 00:56:12.159
Jeremy, I really appreciate your time.

00:56:12.239 --> 00:56:16.719
Uh great conversation, and uh best of best of luck in your endeavors.

00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:20.159
You're you're doing you're doing big guys' work, and I appreciate it.

00:56:20.320 --> 00:56:20.880
Well, thank you.

00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:22.880
I appreciate the conversation and uh the time.

00:56:23.039 --> 00:56:23.920
Thanks for it.