**** FINALE **** The Figures Don't Lie, But Liars Figure - with Special Guest John Ravenscroft

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Cowboys, not Exit. Home of the brave, not home of the fearful. The world needs more Cowboys and fewer exits. We're everywhere podcasts are found. So tell your fellow cowboys. And keep the conversation alive on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter. Remember to subscribe, rate, review, and share. And now, Cowboys, not exit. It's Dan Fisher.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Today's episode is different. My guest is John Ravenscroft. John is 77 years old and has been my family's neighbor for as long as I can remember. He lives and works on the three-bar ranch here in the Nebraska Sand Hills. John isn't a cowboy. He isn't dressing like one. He isn't talking about one. He is one, a real one. His family came into the sand hills generations ago. They survived droughts, winters, market crashes, and the slow pressure of a modern world that doesn't always understand this way of life. This conversation is about history, faith, patience, stewardship of land. And the question I keep coming back to is is the American cowboy a dying breed or just misunderstood? I wanted this conversation to happen at John's home on the ranch because some things can't be explained in my basement studio, John. If you listen carefully today, you're going to hear values that don't trend on social media, but built this country. John, thanks for welcoming into your home today. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 1:35

You're welcome. Good to have you.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

John, how far back does your family go in the Sand Hills and what first brought them here?

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Well, I we don't go back as far as a lot of families. My dad, granddad grew up in Iowa. They come from Iowa.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Now his name was Owen, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

Olin. Right. They had eight children when they were done having children, but they came out. He had a partner from England, and they leased a ranch by Gunning. And his partner lived out there on the ranch. And then my granddad, he he never cared for farming. That's what they had now on his farm. So they I take it they sold the farm and he moved out here. My my dad, I know, was 13 years old, and he drove the car.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Your dad's name was Willis, who I met, and I I, you know, I have a picture in my mind of who Willis Ravenscroft is. Okay. Well, anyway, they drove out here.

SPEAKER_03 2:45

They'd have been in the 30s, early 30s, probably when they first came. The family came to the sand hills.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

What do you what uh what so they didn't want to be Olin Ravenscroft did not want to be a farmer? No. Do you know the story behind that? I mean, that's quite it's a it's a dramatic. Because in Iowa, even then, I would think that your neighbors are still within five miles of you or a couple miles. Everybody had a probably a quarter section or whatever. Um, what what what do you know the story of what would influence him to be want want to be a rancher or be a cowboy?

SPEAKER_03 3:20

Well, I think he just liked cattle in the grass, is what I imagined. Right. Yeah, I don't really I've never heard him say I never heard did you ever meet Oland Ravenscross?

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:33

Okay. Yeah, he was he lived till I was he died, passed away when I was in the service in 1970. Okay. I would have been 20 years old.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Okay, so you have a pretty firm grasp memory of who this man was. Pretty well. Um interesting. Um and so they, but they didn't start, we're here, we're here south of the south of the snake river and north of the Borman Creek, is that right? So uh but that's not where you all that's where they didn't initially move to, is it?

SPEAKER_03 4:03

No, they didn't own land until what, 1940? They leased land, they leased land there at Dunning, and then they moved from there to a place up by Arthur. Okay. They had a forest permit on the Halsey Forest, yeah, and they kept that permit when they moved to Arthur, and I know every spring and fall they drive cattle from Arthur to Halsey?

SPEAKER_01 4:32

To Halsey. That's uh so for my listeners, John, that would be a hundred miles, wouldn't it?

SPEAKER_03 4:38

Uh yeah. I don't know if it'd be quite that far, but it'd be more than 50. I think it'd take them about a week to drive the cattle there. My I just remember my I think be my dad and I got there were six of them boys. My dad and his brothers would drive these cattle. One of the brothers would be the cook. I just remember my grandmother, she'd send them a whole beef to eat, and she never could believe why there wasn't any left when they got back. She never understood where all the food was.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

Yeah, well, you gotta feed cowboys, you know.

SPEAKER_03 5:20

So yeah, that they went there and then they moved to the Box T at Brown Lee. Okay, which is Cherry County. Okay. That's in Cherry County, and then they had an opportunity to buy the it been the Ben Bachelor ranch on the Borderman Creek.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Okay. And that's where we sit today.

SPEAKER_03 5:41

No. No. That's east of here, 13 miles. Okay. They bought that at they paid, I remember they paid$13 an acre for it. And no one thought they'd make that work. But it seems like a no-brainer today.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Yeah, yeah. If you check land prices, that's a free good deal. Yeah. Um okay, so how did they end up here? Uh at uh what point would it become a the bar three ranch?

SPEAKER_03 6:12

Three bar.

SPEAKER_01 6:13

Three bar, excuse me.

SPEAKER_03 6:14

Yeah. The three bar. Well they they my granddad was not afraid to be in debt, evidently. Because he was always he'd buy a ranch. He had these sons. We had the ranch there. We called it the bachelor place. And then my dad and mother moved from there up to what's the Goodfellow Ranch. Is but that's where Rex Adamson lives today.

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Yes, I okay.

SPEAKER_03 6:46

Yeah, which is now the Broken Box Ranch. Yeah. And they I think they were there seven years. I was two years old when we moved up there. And then this ranch, the brand, this was always the Brandeis Ranch. George Brandeis from Omaha. And I told all kinds of stories about George Brandeis. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

But the Brandeis being the name of the of the the the Brandeis clothing stores and the same guy. Okay. Uh that's interesting. Interesting. So he just had this to hunt.

SPEAKER_03 7:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

What's your best story on that deal? What'd you hear?

SPEAKER_03 7:26

Well, I just hear stories about uh my favorite story, and I assume this is true. His brand was 3Ks.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

KKK.

SPEAKER_03 7:37

Yeah. But the story was he had a he had a negro, Negro cup that he brings with him, and a Jewish chauffeur. And he his friends would always give him heck about the three KK.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

Yeah, it didn't make much sense, eh?

SPEAKER_03 7:56

So he changed the brand about the three-bar, or we call the three-bar. Actually, it should be three bars. It's three bars. And plural, not singular. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Yeah. But a three-bar. Yeah. So that's how it came to be. Because because this guy had a K, the George Brandeis had a KKK brand name or brand, and and and uh wouldn't that be something uh back in so we're talking what 1930s, 20s, 30s?

SPEAKER_03 8:28

Yeah, it'd been the 20s and 30s. Uh I don't know. Do you know Joe Andrews Jr.?

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Uh would that be Harley's brother? I don't I know the name, no.

SPEAKER_03 8:41

Yeah, see his dad, they grew up here on the Snake River.

SPEAKER_01 8:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

His dad was Joe Andrews.

SPEAKER_01 8:48

And I knew Joe, I remember Joe Andrews. I mean, I yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:52

Yeah. So he tells a story about Brandeis would hire him to pull their fans trail road get knocked in here. And he'd hire Joe Andrews to bring a team of horses. Suppose it'd be a four horse team. He'd bring it up to where Elvin Adamson ranch is, and he would pull this uh, I don't know if it'd be a limousine, big car anyway, that they arrived in. He would pull it down through the sand and and I'll be darn. He'd give Joe a pint of whiskey for doing that. And the unique thing is when Joe's wife passed away, Eva, she still had this pint of whiskey, or one of these pints of whiskey, she still had it. Is that right? And Joe, son Joe said he wanted that. Eva was just gonna pour it out because she was against alcohol use. Right, right, right. But he still has that today. Is that right? It's never been opened.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

This wow, I wonder if that I wonder if that whiskey draws interest.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

So that's quite an interesting story.

SPEAKER_01 10:13

Wow. So so the uh so they they settled on the Brandeis Ranch, which is now the three-bar ran the KK ranch now. KKK, now it's the three-bar ranch where we're sitting today. What year was that, John, and how old were you?

SPEAKER_03 10:27

I would have been coming 10 years old when I came down here.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

Been in about the time I was born, I would think.

SPEAKER_03 10:34

Yeah, 58.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

Oh, 58. No, no, before I was born, 10 years before I was born. Okay, in the late 50s. About the same time that Bill Fisher bought uh the Barnes place.

SPEAKER_03 10:44

Probably. Well, I think that was probably a little bit later when he bought that. Because I can remember when he bought that before we were getting here.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Okay, yeah. And that's that's why quote unquote neighbors. And again, for our listeners, I mean, as the crow flies, I don't know how far Powderhorn in here is probably I don't I don't know. I don't know. Five, six miles. Five, six miles. Yeah, but to get here today, it took me 30 minutes on one-lane country roads that uh it's not a it's not a direct path. No. Um uh just it's just interesting stuff for people that are not used to that kind of to they understand the vastness of where we're we're where we're at. Yeah, where we're at. Um what do you remember being told about those early years? Uh uh were they hard? Um what nearly broke them? I mean, you you you said that you know, obviously your grandfather was in debt. I mean, everybody was. My grandfather was in debt for most of his life, but I mean he he died very successful. Well, in my in my eyes, he certainly did. He had two ranches of the the man's name, but what what what were some of the hardships that you heard about, or or you know.

SPEAKER_03 11:53

Well, they was I think it was pretty tough for him first years out here. My remember the story of my grandmother. I think she had a pretty nice house in Iowa, and they moved out here to a soghouse. And they say she just sat down on a trunk and cried when she first saw what's gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 12:15

That's probably what she went to the bathroom too right there in that trunk.

SPEAKER_03 12:19

But she she was a worker and she she bought in there and and I know they'd have a lot of trouble with bed bugs. Oh, sure. Set the posts for your legs in your bed in kerosene jars with kerosene and keep the bed bugs.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Well, if you go to sleep tonight, too, give it a little buzz of that kerosene, maybe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:43

So that's one story. So but yeah. No, it was just I always thought the reason my dad granddad was so successful is he had six sons that hired men. Yeah, he had his own workforce. And they yeah, they just they just got a gun. They wouldn't spend any I don't think they spent much money. Had a big garden and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Did you ever remember your grandfather complaining? No, no, he I never remember your father complaining.

SPEAKER_03 13:20

No, my dad.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

No, I remember I never remember my grandfather complaining. I've heard I've heard my father complain, but um this is not what are your thoughts on that? I mean, what are you gonna do out here? You're you're nobody's gonna come to help you, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:36

No, my dad, he he just lived and breathed work, yeah. Or he just loved it. I mean, it wasn't a it wasn't work to him. He just didn't. It was fun. Yeah, he just the grandfather was the same way. He'd just forward to every day uh getting out there and taking care of the cattle.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

What was the last uh how old was he when he f when he got off the horse?

SPEAKER_03 13:59

Oh, he was in his 70s. He'd he'd go to try to ride when we were putting up hay there'd be some cattle out. We had a really a good horse. He'd ride. Yeah. He'd take it out there to never his legs got bad. The horse would turn out from underneath him. Uh driving cattle or he would I never saw that, but he said he'd he just couldn't stay on very good anymore.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Yeah. So he made a decision on his own.

SPEAKER_03 14:32

So yeah, he well, his back was so bad. He always had a bad back.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

He so he never complained about it.

SPEAKER_03 14:40

No, oh no. He would yeah, but yeah, he just enjoyed working.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Yeah, my grandfather was the same way. Um the first time I heard the word workaholic, which I don't know if there is such a thing, I don't know, but was it was used to describe my grandfather. He just liked he liked to work. And yeah, he was gonna, you know, it I have a title of my per previous contact uh podcast is that he he always said, Well, uh we're not going anywhere because who's gonna run the ranch? I mean, if like he's gonna run the ranch. Yeah, this is this is where it's at, right here.

SPEAKER_03 15:13

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's where my dad was. He'd rather be here than anywhere. Anywhere else, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:21

It just wasn't work to him.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:26

Uh John, what what do you think the the sandhills demand from people back or what did the sandhills demand from people back then that maybe it doesn't demand today?

SPEAKER_03 15:36

Well, I first word comes honesty. To me.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Wow.

SPEAKER_03 15:42

I remember my This was before my time, but I remember my granddad the story told my granddad sold Chaos, contracted him for fall delivery. And between the time he had contracted them until that fall they delivered him, the price went up quite a bit. And my story is my grandmother kept asked for him, why don't you she wanted that higher price because they sure needed the money, but he said no. I gave my word that this is what we're gonna sell, this is what we're gonna do. This is what we agreed on.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Handshake it was a man's bond. I mean, and you just didn't go back on that.

SPEAKER_03 16:26

Yeah, you didn't need all the contracts, four, five, six pages of contracts.

SPEAKER_01 16:32

Handshake in an agreement and take it to the bank, right?

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's the biggest honest one of the biggest things.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

What a profound answer, sir. Yeah. Wow.

unknown 16:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

What what about what about the modern world do you think is is changed that? I mean, is uh uh um why is it I'm and I I was I would say submit to you that I mean nobody's perfect, but I I I think where I grew up people were pretty honest for the most part, yeah. But you're right, not everybody is. What what about what what what what about society has changed that, do you think?

SPEAKER_03 17:08

Well, I think in our country here, I think majority of the people are still honest. They're our neighbors and stuff. They're they're good that way.

SPEAKER_02 17:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:18

I I think it's just the opportunity to make more money, probably.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Greed.

SPEAKER_03 17:24

Greed, yeah. Greed probably a lot of it. The saying goes, uh figures don't lie, but liars figure. So yeah, I think greed probably has a lot to do with it.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

I agree with you, John. Just kind of shifting gears here. What uh I want to visit a little bit about what it means to be a cowboy. I mean, when you hear the word cowboy today, what do people get wrong about that?

SPEAKER_03 18:02

Well, I think they associate a lot of it with the rodeo world. Uh that's all they see if cowboys is the rodeo world. To me, cowboy is someone that can handle cattle. You can move cattle, you can ride in the herd of cattle and sort out what you want without stirring them up. Just knowing how to handle cattle. Yeah, I think.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Fascinating answer because I know your family enjoys rodeo. Um, and um I I couldn't agree with you more because there are uh I I maybe maybe you know uh a lot of people that rodeo I don't think necessarily grew up on a ranch. Is that true?

SPEAKER_03 18:47

Oh yeah, that's right. Well, uh it amazes me.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

That's that's my perception of it. It's a little holly, and I don't I don't want to I don't want to put down rodeo and I was never I could never do it, wasn't good at it, I wasn't good with the rope, but um, but it seems to me it's it's it's rodeo in its in and of itself could be a little more Hollywood than what reality is. I mean, our and I've said this before in this podcast, so I'll say it again. We our family, uh, as you know, we're very direct Germans, but um, we couldn't understand why people would rodeo because like don't don't you get enough of that during the day? Yeah, you know, I mean, but it's like real work, and you want to go do that at night, you know. Um, is that so? I guess my question is I think your family may be a little bit different in the sense that they rodeo, but they also put in the work. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:35

Well, my I probably would have liked to rodeo.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Is that right?

SPEAKER_03 19:40

When I was young, but what'd your father say about that? Well, there wasn't it. No, they my granddad and dad, there was no way that was gonna happen. Yeah. Because I think the road the rodeo cowboys used to have kind of a bad image. I think a lot of them got involved with alcohol a lot. Sure. And had a lot of problems that way. And I think the well, I know the rodeo cowboys today, majority of them are pretty good people. I know two of them.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

I'm sure they are.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

Sure. My two grandsons.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 20:17

Uh you mentioned, yeah, a lot of these, a lot of them come from Louisiana and New York. My grandson has a good friend that grew up in New York that's pretty good, pretty good at it.

SPEAKER_01 20:31

Well, and it broadens his horizon by knowing somebody from New York. Has he ever had that guy here? Yes, he meant. Oh boy, well, this ain't this isn't New York. We ain't New York anymore, Toto.

SPEAKER_03 20:43

New York. We have some good friends of my son Eric that come and hunt from New York. There's two New York, or there's New York City, and then there's Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

It's a very rural state. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

Yeah, it's rural New York. And those people are probably just like us.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Yeah, absolutely. I white, I lived in Pennsylvania for two and a half years, and um it's a very rural state. People don't realize that. It's it's you're absolutely right. I mean, it's it's just is there there are places that that look exactly like here.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

Yeah, so a lot of these state, a lot of these boys might be from uh for young men from another and ladies, I should say.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:21

From another state, but it's a rural part of the state, probably.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

Yeah. Well, kind of in it, and this is uh this kind of leads into the next question is what separates a real cowboy from someone just wearing a hat. I'll tell you, John, I I I would not wear a cowboy hat. Yeah, I wouldn't do it. You know why? Because I just think it would be very inauthentic of me to do that. I don't think I've earned it.

SPEAKER_03 21:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Well, there's I I I do wear some. I I I shouldn't say I do wear one once in a while, like if I go down the river or something, it's like a beat up kind of it's almost it's almost um I feel like I'm wearing a Halloween costume if I wear a hat, but I don't I don't you're not gonna see. Me go to Young's Westernware and buy a big fellow. Now, maybe as I get older, maybe I'll feel differently. But I don't so what what what what separates the two for you?

SPEAKER_03 22:08

Well, the I don't know if it's a song or just a saying that you see around the sense uh don't call him a cowboy until you've seen him ride. Yeah. And that's probably a lot of it. You need to be see him around cattle, yeah, and horses, uh how they handle themselves around livestock.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:30

Probably the determining factor.

SPEAKER_01 22:33

Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Now, you all, this is kind of a sidebar. Uh, my brother, I forgot this, but now I do remember it. Now, you all for a while had what my dad, what powder has since 1990. All they have is what we dad used to call Japanese quarter horses, motorcycles. You all, you for a while you did that as well, right? You got well, we still do. Well, you do we still do. Okay. So you use them when you move cattle, it's a mix then of horses and motorcycles, or well, far green is yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:03

Today it's pretty much all. And then the far green has been replaced by these rangers. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:14

Well, I mean, if you've ever been in a cattle drive where A, it's it's like really cold. Right. Um I'll share a story about that in a second. Um, or it's uh it's really wet, then it's not not too bad to be in that ranger, huh?

SPEAKER_03 23:32

It's pretty nice. Yeah. We have horses, but they're all horses that have been acquired for rodeoing.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:41

Might have been so my granddaughter and grandson that work here, they like to ride horses, and and my daughter-in-law Shannon. They'll go with horses once in a while just because they like riding. Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

But it's you don't use them necessarily as a tool to move cattle, is that we don't really have to have them like we used to. What do you think my grandfather would think of that, or your grandfather would think of that?

SPEAKER_03 24:09

Well, they my they were pretty open-minded, my grandparents were. As long as we were making progress. As long as we're getting the cattle taken care of.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

That was interesting about my grandfather is that he was he was open-minded too. If something was gonna be more efficient, he would he'd be open enough to to take a look at it.

SPEAKER_03 24:29

Yeah, yeah. So I don't know. Uh the big thing, it's hard to find ranch help anymore. They're like your ranches about have to be family operations, a lot of them, or ours is. Yeah, but these far readers are what they've replaced what three or four men horseback. One man on a far reader can do what three or four men used to do a horseback. Probably. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:25

So it's just a different time. Just the way uh, yeah, the way it is.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Different time. So I'm gonna tell a quick story that um hopefully Cheryl's sitting over here, she won't uh she won't edit me here. But um my gr when I was about 10 or 12, and I've told this before, but I just think it's a fun story about my grandfather. And I just I remembered this in like the last 10 years, just one of those things that stuck. But um, I was about uh I want to say eight or twelve years old, and not even, not even. I don't think I was I I think it was eight or ten years old. And we were driving cattle from the Sunny Slope Ranch uh where my dad grew up and my granddad lived, and uh uh Bruce and his boys uh are all out, but uh uh from the sunny slope to the Schlagel Creek, um that's they no longer have that property, but it's about a seven or eight mile drive. Now it was my I'm trying not to exaggerate the conditions, but it was very cold. I mean, less than zero wind chill, certainly. Um, and I was dressed up like the kid, I don't know if you've seen the movie Christmas Story, the kid that's in the overalls, and you can barely you can't even move your joints because you're just you're just you can barely get on your horse. And I said something in the barn. I'll never I I just this came to me recently, but I said something like, Oh, I sure hope we're gonna have to go to the bathroom. And my grandfather almost, I think he physically took me and spun me around like a marine drill sergeant. He goes, You down your leg and you go on. You did it as a kid, you can do it now. That's just something you don't forget.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

Yeah. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah. Yeah, we always joked about if it was too cold to do anything else, we could always go move cattle somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 27:11

There you go. There you go. There you go. What are the uh I have what I call unwritten rules, but what are the what are the unspoken rules of being a cowboy? Is the thing you were never taught in words?

SPEAKER_03 27:27

Well, we you never ride in front of another rider, ride in front of him, you always no sir. You would go behind him, not in front of him.

SPEAKER_01 27:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

Uh that was one thing we always did. You never rode another man's horse. We always had our own horses that we rode. Those were our horses to ride. Yes. And you wouldn't just go catch any horse.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

No, catch your own. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of like adultery, yeah. Yeah. Um I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 28:01

We always, as a young man, we always had in our head we had to wear a hat. We no matter how cold it was, we'd always wear a hat. Cowboy hat. Yeah. You had these sheepskin coats that had a collar on them, you'd pull up around your ears. Yeah. But I don't know how many times I frosted my ears. Just because I didn't wasn't gonna put a cap.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

So now you don't do that, huh?

SPEAKER_03 28:28

I really like a cat.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Absolutely ear flappers, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, how early did responsibility show up in your life?

SPEAKER_03 28:39

Oh man. Probably in grade school. I got a man when I got home from school, it was my job to go feed these small calves. We always call them potties. Small calves. They'd have a little shed out there with grain in it, and uh two or three bunks. And it was my job to get my horse and go out and feed these round these calves up to the bunk and feed these calves. It was something something I could have done in ten minutes.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:14

But he always that was my job every day.

SPEAKER_01 29:17

What time what time of day was that?

SPEAKER_03 29:19

Always get home at four o'clock. And then it was always my job. Well that maybe we started. Oh, when I when I was home or to get the horses in in the morning for the day. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Yeah. And yeah, you were what eight years old? When you started getting responsibilities, you think?

SPEAKER_03 29:48

Oh, I thought, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

Yeah. Yeah. Uh that's about the size of it.

SPEAKER_03 29:56

Yeah. I enjoy reading old stories about back in the early late 1800s and early 1900s. I just finished a book about this young man. They they were pretty much growing up at 13 and 14 years old. That's when a lot of them would leave home and go out their own way.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

My grandfather had eighth grade education, and uh, he was 14 and went out. He was farming, he was 14. He they had a farm and he ran it.

SPEAKER_03 30:29

Young adults at that age, it seemed like. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

Yep, different time. Want to shift a little bit, John, to to faith, patience, and character. Um which I think uh uh describes you. I think those are your three best qualities. Um clearly, faith's always been important in your life. How did that develop for you?

SPEAKER_03 30:54

Well, probably from my parents. My parents as a young man growing up, we got every Sunday we go to Sunday school. And uh they always can't just in Sunday school or church every Sunday. That's probably how you grew up. Grew up believing the Bible and faith in God.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Ranching teaches patience whether you want it or not. Um what taught you patience the hard way?

SPEAKER_03 31:28

Well, I I feel bad about it, but growing up I had a little brother. We he'd be I guess you got a little brother too. Yeah. We'd be moving cattle. I don't know why, but I'd get so upset and if the cattle aren't going right. I'd get upset at my little brother.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

I don't believe it, but okay.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

He he just he might he seem to just take it in the stride. He doesn't hold it against me today, so maybe he doesn't even remember that.

SPEAKER_01 32:01

Interesting. You learn to be patient with your little brother then, basically.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

Yeah. And then I don't know, just cattle, cattle that don't do what you think they ought to do. I know.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

They never do what they think you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_03 32:15

Yeah. So I in later years I've realized if cattle aren't doing something right, it's probably you're not you're probably the one that's not doing something right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Maybe maybe maybe you're the part of the equation that needs to change.

SPEAKER_03 32:29

Yeah, it's probably your fault.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:31

They're not doing what they're what you want them to.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Yeah.

unknown 32:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

So uh working cattle, patience comes in for you, huh? Oh no. You ever seen a fishers work cattle? I've heard, I've heard about it. Is that right? Yeah, there's a that's uh that's a tough place to be, buddy. That that corral is that corral is a tough place. That Fisher Corral. If you can, if you can, if you can get through the Fisher Corral, you can play for a guy by the name of Killer Kane. But anyway, um uh it's a it was a tough place. I mean, uh the one thing that I learned uh early on is uh talk about the unwritten rules is is um awareness. You have to have such uh a 360-degree awareness of where you're at, where the cattle at, where where the other cowboy is. Um my my cousin-in-law Vaughn talked about the transition, and she's got some neat little podcasts we did. But when she came from Omaha, you know, like she's learning, you're just she was put into the fire. I mean, just like there's no briefing, there's no nothing. You just learn on the spot. But like uh my cousin would write up, or Morgan would ride up next door and say, You see me? And she's like, Yeah, goes good. And then he rides off. And she's like, What is that all about? And you told her later, like, when you see me, you have to understand that they're there, and they made something, they may say something or they may not, but you have to understand that they're there. Yeah, and just just interesting stuff, yeah. Um, so you have to be aware, situational awareness of your other cowboys, uh, where the cattle are at, what's the you know, what's gonna happen if X happens in the next six seconds, what's Y gonna be? Those kind of things. Yeah. Um that to me that was that was the crowd work. Yeah, and it's not for everybody. But in the Ravenscroft world, I would love to work cattle with you, John. If you're so patient, you're not gonna get yelled at, maybe.

SPEAKER_03 34:27

Well, we the comment I even made about our crew is that nobody's hollering. We work cattle, nobody says anything. You might get the look.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

I remember one time when I was a kid, probably a teenager. I can't remember if we were helping you. I think we were helping you move cattle. I don't even know why you're going across our bridge, but you were on the snake there. Yeah, I can't remember why, but we're helping you, or you were helping, and they were just it was the quietest thing I've ever. I'm like, how is this gonna work? Nobody's saying anything. Yeah, so yeah, that that totally backs up what I remember. Yeah, we yeah, I don't know. We just never fisher's out there cussing, hollering. I mean, it's just a mess. It's chaos. Um, and I think things have changed over the years, but um, that's the way Yeah, working cattle, a lot of it.

SPEAKER_03 35:19

You need to know how to position yourself to the cow.

SPEAKER_01 35:24

Awareness.

SPEAKER_03 35:25

Yeah, and then uh one thing I've learned you need moving cattle, do you watch the leaders? The leaders is the one you're driving.

SPEAKER_01 35:34

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_03 35:35

Everybody tries to drive them from the back. No, but the back goes where the leaders go. Yep. So you drive the leaders.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

Yep. Absolutely. Um in ranching, when things go wrong, and they do go wrong, um weather, yeah, every day. Every day. Weather, cattle, finances, what what's kept you steady?

SPEAKER_03 36:04

Oh, just knowing that you were gonna get it. You were gonna get it done. My dad taught me never to give up. Like if you're doing something, he he would never give up. I never saw him give up.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Finish the job is a definite cowboy ethic.

unknown 36:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:21

One time I know he he enjoyed working with water, was his deal. He was draining these lakes and he jumped across the drainage ditch one time and he lost his bell full. He hadn't had his bell full because it was a sun deed and we'd been to church.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:41

He went back and he found that bellful. He was gonna find it down in that water and mud. He found his bellful. I never patience. I wouldn't uh I'd have looked 10 minutes and went down there. Yeah. But he would stay with something if he made up his mind to do it.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

It's probably gonna happen. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

It's a great lesson. That's a great lesson. Do you think patience is something you can teach or does life teach it for you?

SPEAKER_03 37:16

I think life's a better teacher. Yeah. You can talk about it. You can talk about it. But I think it's something you have to learn, learn by doing. Yeah, probably.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Absolutely. Um absolutely. And I it's it's something that I uh recently I've been uh asking, I won't ask you this question unless you want to answer it, but I've been asking guests this question that it's unique, the answer is unique for everyone. And and and the punchline for me, well, the the the the the the question is if you've if you say the the UPS driver delivered a box to your house, and on that box is labeled everything you've lost in your life, what would you what would you look for first? And for me, the answer is patience.

SPEAKER_03 38:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:04

Um it's just something that I've trying to in my older years here, my my my my gray-haired years, I'm trying to get better at that. It's just something I've struggled with all my life. I think it's the way I'm wired. I just think I'm a uh I'm a fisher. I'm a fisher.

SPEAKER_03 38:28

You're fishers are great, great people, but they are nervous.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Yeah, they get uptight. They're just bread down, get uptight. That's just the way you it's the way you're wired. Yeah, that's right. That's DNA. It doesn't mean you can't change though. And I think that's I think that's what faith uh really ultimately should uh help you do is is that you find you gotta reach you have to reach sometimes, yeah. You know. But um, so John, did you want to answer that question? If you had a box of everything you lost your life.

SPEAKER_03 38:57

Well, some people it's tangible, some you know, it could be anything, but well, mine would be I used to wear my dad's spurs in the one spurs trap at the war, and I lost that one spurs, and it always felt pretty bad.

SPEAKER_01 39:13

You'd really like to get that back. See, it's different for everybody, but yeah, your mind goes somewhere directly. I just think it's one of the most interesting questions I've ever heard of. Yeah, you know, not that I I'd love to tell you I came up with it myself. I heard somebody else ask it once. I'm like, boy, that's a interesting question because everybody's gonna look at that differently. But uh do you believe the American cowboy is a dying breed?

SPEAKER_03 39:40

Oh, I don't. Depends on not in the rural area, probably. Like, especially from west of here.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

Well, you've got grandkids on this ranch, and you know that this thing's gonna keep going for a while.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

Yeah. So I think it I think it's gonna keep going, the cowboy.

SPEAKER_01 40:03

So I should be more optimistic about that, maybe, huh?

SPEAKER_03 40:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:06

Or do you think there's gonna be fewer cowboys in 10 years?

SPEAKER_03 40:09

Oh yeah, there'd definitely be fewer. Yeah. Because it's the way things are anymore. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:17

But we're never gonna die, huh?

SPEAKER_03 40:18

No.

SPEAKER_01 40:19

There's gonna be somebody around.

SPEAKER_03 40:22

Oh, I think so. As long as there's cattle. Yeah. I think I guess as long as there's cattle, I think there'll be people that care for them and like uh like that lifestyle.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 40:36

Yeah. You read still articles about where was I just did watch uh episode about a lot of young ladies. I think the young ladies are the ones that are gonna carry it on. It's interesting, like my granddaughter.

SPEAKER_01 40:56

It's interesting. Shout out to your granddaughter Jalen. I've never met her, but I my understanding is she's a loyal listener of my of the podcast. So bless her. Yeah, maybe maybe Sam will leave her a few lessons too, huh?

SPEAKER_03 41:08

One lesson she needs to learn. I get a chuckle out of her. She wants to know. She likes to meet and say what you're gonna do each day and have it written down. Oh, organized. And I keep telling her Jalen, we don't know what we're gonna do. Because you start out the day thinking you're gonna do something, but when you get out there, everything changes.

SPEAKER_01 41:32

It changes, you gotta go full flow. Well, my dad would like Jalen, though, because my dad was very organized. He he he was he he knew months in advance, and he he he was always like Christmas is coming. I mean, he's you know, I mean, he would say that in July. Um he was he was uh he was that way, so that's all right, Jalen. That's all right. Yeah, that's all right. Yeah. Maybe a good maybe a big, you know, be organized, but know that you're gonna very few days are gonna go the way you think they're gonna go.

SPEAKER_03 42:03

Yeah, you have a list of things you want to do, and you can keep that list, which is fine. It's gonna be a done, but maybe done today.

SPEAKER_01 42:13

But that that the list will never end. My dad, my dad died with multiple lists, you know. It's never the list would never end. Yeah, yeah. It'll never end. Yeah. Um if if the cowboy population is is shrinking, if we make that assumption, what what uh what's killing it? Economics, culture, something else?

SPEAKER_03 42:40

Oh, I think it's uh to me, it's uh easier lifestyle. People like like uh caring for cattle, you have to be out there in all weather and on weekends and on holidays.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

And I think there's nothing convenient, there's nothing convenient or easy about it.

SPEAKER_03 43:00

Because people enjoyed a lot uh your five-day work week. They like that you have the weekend off to go do something else to go fish and hunt. Of course, you can still go fish and hunting, hunt. But people like I think like that not having to be out there in the bad weather.

SPEAKER_00 43:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:27

And the shorter hours, you never know what your hours are. We we work a lot shorter hours than we used to. But just because of the equipment we have probably today.

SPEAKER_01 43:39

Right. Right. Yeah, so you don't think ranch is ever gonna be a 10 a.m. to three p.m. gig, huh? You don't don't don't don't think that's gonna happen?

SPEAKER_03 43:47

Not if you have cattle on it.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

Okay. Um well what gives you hope then? What gives you hope about the future of being a cowboy or the future of ranching?

SPEAKER_03 44:00

Well people like to eat meat.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Yeah. Real meat.

SPEAKER_03 44:04

Yeah, yeah. And as long as that's happening, there's gonna be you're gonna have to somebody's gonna have to raise the IP.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely right. Absolutely right. So, John, when the when the land outlives you as it will, um what do you hope uh people say about how you cared for it?

SPEAKER_03 44:31

Well we try to we try to improve the quality of the grass and uh density of the grass by the way we graze the cattle.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

We're talking about rotation.

SPEAKER_03 44:44

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

And that's not something what year did you start doing that?

SPEAKER_03 44:48

Oh, I think it was the late 80s, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

So you were well in your adulthood before you so that's something that's definitely changed.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

Yeah, that was a big change. The biggest change we probably made in our ranching now. I always give my hat off to my dad, he would like we mentioned earlier. Our granddad were open to change if it was gonna work, or he said he'd give us ten years. He'd give my brother me ten years to see if this worked. And after two years, he was convinced. He said, I don't know why we didn't do this sooner, he was funny. Well, good for you. Yeah, good for you.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

So that rotation thing is brought to mind when it happened that happened these obviously we everybody does it. I mean, powderhorn's been doing it for years as well. But yeah, when it happened, I remember I was probably in high school. Um, and I remember my dad's joke about it was like, Well, you don't you don't need fly rubs if you're rotating the cattle all the time because you're out running the flies. That's the way my dad thought about things, but yeah, it's a joke, obviously.

SPEAKER_03 45:57

But yeah, I thought it was well, there's some truth to it.

SPEAKER_01 46:00

Yeah. Depends on how often, because if they're larvae and stuff or they're born and stuff, if you're moving on, then they you know, but it depends on how often you're moving.

SPEAKER_03 46:08

If you're moving every three to five days, oh have mercy.

SPEAKER_01 46:13

How often do you move then? Rotate about three to five?

SPEAKER_03 46:16

Yeah. Oh my yeah.

unknown 46:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:19

You all like moving cattle. Well, it's I and I don't even know the power horn sketch. I'm I'm I'm sitting here in total ignorance. I mean, I'm stuck in 1980s, so I don't well moving the cattle is you don't go out there, it's not move physically moving them. You just open the gate, open the gate and they'll make it through, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:39

I always tell people we have more trouble keeping the cattle from moving than moving them.

SPEAKER_01 46:44

There you go.

SPEAKER_03 46:45

Because they know they're going to get fresh grass. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

And then they'll look for it. Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 46:50

And cattle are yeah, it's amazed me over the years. Cattle are just like humans. They they want to get there before their neighbor gets there. Sure. To get that good grass.

SPEAKER_01 47:01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 47:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 47:03

They're greedy. They're just as greedy as people are.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Yeah. Um so you've got a couple of grandkids out here. What what values do you do you hope that they they care carry forward?

SPEAKER_03 47:20

Well, I guess go back to that integrity and honesty and doing an honest day's work. Probably.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:31

Uh treating your fellow man like you would like to be treated.

SPEAKER_01 47:36

Yeah. It's all part of the cowboy ethics. Pretty pretty pretty pretty simple stuff. Um so if a young man or woman wanted to to live this life today, w uh uh uh what advice would you give them or what what would you tell them, honestly?

SPEAKER_03 47:56

Well, don't worry about Walmart. That's the hardest problem is finding a couple they're both satisfied. Usually the man'll be okay, but his wife feels like he's not close enough to a shopping center. Uh-huh. Or it's tough. Vice versa. It's tough, and it's understandable, honestly. The lady might like the real life, but the husband for some reason doesn't care for it.

SPEAKER_00 48:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:34

Yeah. One thing that's really changed. Well, it used to be is I don't know if it if you need the money, but out here a lot of the married ladies feel like they need to have a job. They'll drive two or three hours to a job. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 48:54

Legitimate listeners don't understand that, but yes, legitimately. People will drive 60 miles to get their haircut in this way. Because uh unless you're why uh if some of your family does it, that's how far you're gonna have to drive.

SPEAKER_03 49:04

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

So uh Yeah, there's a lot of that's a lot of gas, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 49:10

Just being willing to live in the country, I guess. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

It's the key thing.

SPEAKER_03 49:17

And uh things you know you're gonna have to do to make that happen.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Yeah.

unknown 49:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:24

My final question, John, it wasn't uh it's not on my notes here, but I'm curious. Have you ever seen the show Yellowstone?

SPEAKER_03 49:37

I laughed. And that was the end of it? We thought it was too much pornography in it for us.

SPEAKER_01 49:44

Ah fair enough. Fair enough.

SPEAKER_03 49:47

Uh I've never seen some.

SPEAKER_01 49:50

It's the it has so little to do with the way I grew up, and it just it it's entertaining for some people, but John, it just absolutely has like we don't, you know, we're not out here killing it has to, it's really interesting for me because it has to do with uh cattle ranching, you know, and and and making sure the government doesn't take your land. I get that. We all get that, we understand relate to that. Um, it has to do with law enforcement, believe it or not. And I was I was in law enforcement for 13 years, and it has to do a lot with politics. And well, hey, I was pretty I don't know. Actually, I was pretty good at that. But um uh and so I look at it like, hey, this is everything that I've done in my life, and and and they get all three things way wrong. So yeah, I I didn't I I I was really curious if you if you'd seen it or not. Yeah, it's it's just not something you want to watch, huh?

SPEAKER_03 50:44

We haven't watched it.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

What's the best? Uh you probably don't you don't folks see that this is not a man that probably goes to movie theater, but um you probably watch movies, right? Um is what's the best best movie you ever saw that had to do with cowboys or westerns or anything like that?

SPEAKER_03 51:01

Oh, I I like Lonesome Dove.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

Lonesome Dove. My buddy from Louisiana of all places uh recommended that to me. And he goes, You haven't seen Lonesome Dove? I'm like, no, sir. And he goes, You need to see Lonesome Dove. And I haven't seen it, so I need to see it now, particularly since you recommended it.

SPEAKER_03 51:16

But yeah, it's I I don't know how if it's really, really realistic, but it's an interesting code.

SPEAKER_01 51:25

Well, if you liked it, John, I'm I'm gonna watch it. I'm gonna watch it.

unknown 51:28

Uh huh.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

Well, I appreciate our time today. Is there anything that I didn't cover that I should?

SPEAKER_03 51:34

No, I think you covered everything pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 51:36

Okay. We didn't uh your your grandma daughter wanted me to ask you a little bit about your you you were a public servant for a long time, but you know what? I'm gonna take politics. We're not gonna talk about politics today. We're I just want to talk about being being a cowboy today.

SPEAKER_03 51:50

The one thing that people usually want to know what's the biggest change you've seen in franchise. Yeah. And I think it would be the mechanized side of it. Yeah. You know, the way we put up hay. Put up hay.

SPEAKER_01 52:04

The way we feed hay and put up hay and just I mean it went from it went from a uh three-month, four-month deal to uh to uh to a 30-day deal, really, if the weather's good, right? I mean it's uh or maybe it's more I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 52:17

Yeah, and then the amount of help it takes to do it right, right. The equipment we have today is really cut down on the fortunately on the amount of help you need to take care of cancer.

SPEAKER_01 52:28

And that that equipment's not cheap either, but uh that's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 52:32

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

John, I appreciate it. Thank you, sir. Well, thank you. You bet for talking to you. You bet.